PC hit rates and enemy damage output

[Cadfan]

For what its worth, if we're not assuming D&D, its possible to make a game system where the hit rate is 100%. Damage is already randomized. Start the randomization at zero in some way, and you're good to go.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Consider these three cases. Treat all of them as the final battle in your campaign, with the party at no less than 80% of their resources and at the highest level of power you expect to play to.

Case A: Lone BBEG tough enough to take on the entire party
Case B: Lone BBEG with assorted underlings which individually are lower in level than the party average
Case C: Enemy party, assume they are fighting their exact clones down to equipment, abilities and buffs.

For all cases, assume that the party is competent (not overoptimized monstrosities) with comparable equipment and no one has any special advantage, be it environment, positioning, buffing or whatnot.

Player or DM? Or both?
1) Both

Hit Rate
2) What would be an ideal hit rate range using the party's strongest attacks against the entire range of different defences available for

• the lone BBEG in case A: Probably a little better than 50% and compensate, as mentioned by another poster, by DR, higher hp, reduced effects, etc.
• the supported BBEG in case B: Same as A
• the underlings in case B: Good, maybe 75% or more. I'd make them minion-ish.
• a character fighting his exact clone in case C (ie, the armoured Knight vs the other armoured Knight): Around 50%. Could be a little more, or a little less. In the end, it wouldn't really matter, since the character will have the same chance of hitting his clone than the clone hitting the character.

3) Referring to 2d), do you feel that the hit rates should vary by class? As I said, it doesn't matter, IMO, if Character A can hit Clone A 90% of the time and Character B can hit Clone B 10% of the time, because the reverse will also be true. The hit rate could change from class to class, but I wouldn't spread it too much.
4) Against an opponent of equal strength and even footing, is it acceptable for your best attacks to have a hit rate of much less than 50%? Please assume that they are supposed to beat the enemy in combat, and don't account for maneuvers that may increase the hit rates yet. Everything is acceptable, but it isn't much fun when you miss all the time (and basically lose, in 4E for example, all your encounter and daily powers).
5) How long do you feel combat-relevant buffs should last? For simplicity of use, one combat, but it can be less (a few rounds) if the buff is especially good.

Damage
6) Without using Save or Die type attacks, should it be possible to incapacitate or kill the toughest character by direct damage in one single action by

• the lone BBEG in case A No. I can't see the fun in that.
• the supported BBEG in case B No
• the exact clone fighting the character in case C? No

7) If (6) is not acceptable, would one full round of actions be acceptable? In one round, the BBEG can bring a fully-healed, tough character down to the negatives? No, IMO, it wouldn't be acceptable. The BBEG's best attack could, IMO, bring the weakest character down to ~25% of his max health.
8) If you found (6) OR (7) acceptable, how often do you feel that the BBEG or clone should be repeat this in one encounter? Depends on the length of the encounter. Let's say it could happen every 4-5 rounds or so.
9) Without using Save or Dies, should one single character be able to incapacitate or kill the lone BBEG in case A using direct damage in one action or one rounds worth of actions? Hell no.
10) If your answer to (9), how much resources should be burned in such an attempt? In true cinematic fashion, I'd say that it would take every character's combined actions to bring down the BBEG in one round.

Hope this is helpful!

AR

 

[steenan]

3. Hitting would mean successfully performing an attack that causes the desired effect on the target. Thus, both striking a character for 6 damage and catching an enemy in a net both count as hitting. The latter, of course, may be subject to additional defense mechanics such as Reflex saves or the like, depending on how the system is framed.

How much is "6 damage"?
Hits that give a real effect should happen with quite the same probability no matter the class when fighting with your exact copy - and by "real effect" I mean a hit that significantly weakens the opponent, incapacitates or kills him. Attacks stopped by armor do not falkl into this cathegory. Attacks that have no effect due to saves or other additional defences do not, either. Thus, it is possible that one type of characters will get hit often, but not injured, while other will dodge attacks or regenerate wounds. Still, about hald of the attacks will do something significant.

4a. Hmm, I'm not familiar with any system that models abstract dodges. Do you have an example?

I'm not familiar with any that system that abstracts them completely, but many people suggest that (for example, in D&D) hitpoints represent not only injuries, but also near-misses, lucky dodges and so on. In my oppinion, if dodges are in HP they are not necessary (and just shouldn't be present) separately. It would mean that the only roll used is for damage - exactly as Cadfan described a few posts earlier.

4b. Assume that defenses are static. However, the target of the attack can spend appropriate actions (if it has any left) to perform defensive maneuvers to weaken or negate the attack directed at it. The difficulty of the defensive maneuver will be based on the hit roll of the attack defended against. How should this impact hit rates?

If using defensive maneuvers requires giving up attacks, there really are two hit rates to take into account: against defensive maneuver and without it. If you aim for balancing offense and defence, I suggest setting them at about 20% and 60-70%, respectively. If attacks are lethal and characters should focus on not getting hit, lower the hit chance against defensive maneuver.

 

[kibbitz]

For what its worth, if we're not assuming D&D, its possible to make a game system where the hit rate is 100%. Damage is already randomized. Start the randomization at zero in some way, and you're good to go.

Interestingly enough, I first saw this in the Sagard the Barbarian series authored by Gary (Gygax). There, you rolled a D4 and consulted a table for damage. This does feel like a system where the *quality* of your roll is directly related to damage, which may not be what desirable depending on your personal sense of aesthetics. It also seems potentially messy with separate damage tables or different damage calculation rules for each different method of attack if we want different damage progressions.

 

[kibbitz]

Thanks for replying, ashockney.

1) DM
2) Using their optimal attacks: a)75%, b)80%, c)95%, d)depends upon class and attack type (50% - 95%), b/c some naturally defend better against themselves
3) Yes, they should vary by class, attack type, and defense type
4) No, it should hit but be less effective
5) An action or an encounter
6) No (PS - "toughest" is arbitrary)
7) No
8) n/a
9) No
10) 50% or greater of all the parties resources to burn down the "penultimate" encounter to end a campaign

6. Could you explain what you meant by arbitrary?

 

[kibbitz]

Thanks for answering, Altamont.

Player or DM? Or both?
1) Both

---snip---

Hope this is helpful!

AR

Very helpful

 

[kibbitz]

How much is "6 damage"?
Hits that give a real effect should happen with quite the same probability no matter the class when fighting with your exact copy - and by "real effect" I mean a hit that significantly weakens the opponent, incapacitates or kills him. Attacks stopped by armor do not falkl into this cathegory. Attacks that have no effect due to saves or other additional defences do not, either. Thus, it is possible that one type of characters will get hit often, but not injured, while other will dodge attacks or regenerate wounds. Still, about hald of the attacks will do something significant.

Agreed. As for 6 damage, 6 is just a number I pulled for the example, but apparently I misunderstood your post with regards to *what hitting means*. My apologies, I thought you were asking for clarification of my intent.

I'm not familiar with any that system that abstracts them completely, but many people suggest that (for example, in D&D) hitpoints represent not only injuries, but also near-misses, lucky dodges and so on. In my oppinion, if dodges are in HP they are not necessary (and just shouldn't be present) separately. It would mean that the only roll used is for damage - exactly as Cadfan described a few posts earlier.

Oh, that Digressing a bit, I read near-dodges as bad damage rolls. HP is just HP, though I've never had a satisfactory explanation to use for HP.

Back on topic, as per my reply to Cadfan, this does tie damage to the quality of your *to-hit* roll. This is good or bad, depending on what you're looking for.

If using defensive maneuvers requires giving up attacks, there really are two hit rates to take into account: against defensive maneuver and without it. If you aim for balancing offense and defence, I suggest setting them at about 20% and 60-70%, respectively. If attacks are lethal and characters should focus on not getting hit, lower the hit chance against defensive maneuver.

Thanks. I get the idea, but I'm not sure what you meant in terms of %s meant by *setting them at about 20% and 60-70%, respectively*.

 

[steenan]

Thanks. I get the idea, but I'm not sure what you meant in terms of %s meant by *setting them at about 20% and 60-70%, respectively*.

What I meant is that the hit rates ("hits" as described above) are 20% againts a defensive maneuver and 60-70% without it (passive defense). How these probabilities result from given combat mechanics isn't important. It may be only attacker rolling, with defensive maneuver only adding a bonus to some kind of "AC", or a maneuver replacing the static defense with a skill roll or whatever, depending on the system used.