PC-level Aristocrats and Experts

[index]

> Gez wrote :

> Should I pimp again my own version of the Aristocrat?
> http://gez117.free.fr/dnd/aristocrat.html

> Yes, I figured I should.

> If they step on any toes, it's on the Bard's. Which I figured is OK,
> since for roleplay reason, I don't think a noble is going to want to
> become a tavern singer.

Ah, now I remember what bothers me about the Aristocrat and
Barbarian classes : conflating social standing with
abilities. This straight-jackets classes into certain
social roles, makes the game less flexible.

As far as I'm concerned, Bard (or the Marshal from the
Miniatures Handbook, available free at
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b ) make
good leader types, and should be good choices for an upper
class character. (Though obviously the Marshal is focused
on battlefield effectiveness. That's what multi-classing is
for.)

Gez, I like that your version of the Aristocrat has
Leadership score bonuses. It's shocking how many 'noble'
characters don't have Leadership. What, NONE of these
example characters have a hundred or so LOYAL followers?

The way you have abilities at high level dependent on both
class level and Diplomacy skill ranks discourages
multi-classing. Though that seems to be WotC's intent, I
believe discouraging multi-classing is a bad thing. Having
a list of special abilities they can choose from at high
level, each with a minimum number of Diplomacy ranks, would
be better IMO. If you must have level restrictions, and you
don't want to inflate the Diplomacy rank restrictions, use
character level (instead of class level) restrictions,
please.

> My reasonning was that what made someone a leader is not his capacity
> to fight, sling spells, or pick lock; it's not even his capacity to do
> wise rulings (there's a number of real-life examples, past and
> present). It's his capacity to lead. To motivate his troops, to make
> people want to follow him.

[mode=cynical]What makes a person a leader is rich
parents.[/mode] Seriously, the mark of an EFFECTIVE leader
is the ability to wisely choose subordinates and keep them
working together. I think your bonuses to Leadership score
(and, secondarily, dependence on Diplomacy skill) are a good
start in that direction. Having Sense Motive as a class
skill is good for figuring out who BELIEVES they are
trustworthy. But how (within the D&D rules) do you tell
whether or not someone actually is competent in their field,
other than also being competent in that field?

Don't worry about it too much. Historically, most leaders
have been the biggest bullies, not those actually most
competent at leading.

--index

 

[index]

Wizard in hiding

I wrote :

> > [....] but in my experience, multiclassing cripples a spellcaster.

Vrecknidj aka Dave replied :

> In this particular campaign, arcane spellcasting is against the law.
> It's a very low magic world, and I play the only spellcaster PC. I
> took the other classes out of necessity so this character has a
> legitimate way of blending into the world.

Ow. And yet you still managed wizard 10? Who enforces this
law? The agents of the necromancer-king who wants no
competition? Some church? Must make life ... interesting.
Why wizard instead of sorcerer? Having to be careful about
spellbooks, being almost unable to buy spells, having to be
SO careful about even researching spells... Sounds like
you'd effectively have the limitations of the sorcerer
(limited spell selection) anyway.

(How are magic items limited? Detect Magic (from a cleric
or otherwise) can't tell if an item was made with divine or
arcane magic, but items might be confiscated on the mere
suspicion that a wizard created them.)

Let's see... An Ari 1/Exp 2/Wiz 10 should easily be able to
pretend to be an Ari 6/Exp 2. The important part is to not
get caught with a spellbook, and to not get caught casting
spells.

Other aristocrats should be digging into your PC's
activities for social advantage. Accusing a competing noble
of 'witchcraft' and being able to make the charge stick
should be quite effective. How many nobles are blackmailing
your PC?

Wizard 10... I assume she regularly, FROM HIDING, casts
Charm Monster on other nobles? That plus Suggestion should
be a good way to recover blackmail evidence, then force the
blackmailer into a duel with some third party that they
can't win.

(There's nothing in the Suggestion spell description that
says it can't work on a sleeping person, so that they won't
CONSCIOUSLY remember the suggestion. Suggestion : "Master
Duelist Lord Other-Blackmailer has been insulting your
honor. You must publicly challenge him to defend your
honor." Especially effective if you've previously been
using Alter Self to spread rumors.)

Okay, now I'm having ideas for history in my world.

--index

 

[Nifft]

Nifft wrote :
> > Nothing here is OGL, unless explicitly indicated.

I'll fix that. You should be able to use the Aristocrat.

-- N

 

[Gez]

The way you have abilities at high level dependent on both class level and Diplomacy skill ranks discourages
multi-classing.

True, however, this was to stay consistent with the way things are in 3.5. The 3.0 version of my alt. aristocrat had merely Diplomacy rank requirements.

[mode=cynical]What makes a person a leader is rich
parents.[/mode] Seriously, the mark of an EFFECTIVE leader
is the ability to wisely choose subordinates and keep them
working together. I think your bonuses to Leadership score
(and, secondarily, dependence on Diplomacy skill) are a good
start in that direction. Having Sense Motive as a class
skill is good for figuring out who BELIEVES they are
trustworthy. But how (within the D&D rules) do you tell
whether or not someone actually is competent in their field,
other than also being competent in that field?

I was kinda working on the fantasy archetype, "rally to my white plume" and all that. Not a good warrior necessarily, but definitely good at inspiring his followers and bolstering their morals. Also, I maintain that good leaders are those who are charismatic enough -- if they aren't wise enough, it's not too bad, as long as they have the uncharismatic-but-wise advisor as a power behind the throne.

Finally, for estimating someone's competence, there are some rough rules in Oriental Adventures for that. We use them.

 

[Aeric]

If you're looking for a PC-worthy version of the Aristocrat class, how about Noble? Green Ronin put out an entire book about the Noble class (which to my knowledge first appeared in d20 Star Wars), including a couple of Prestige Classes designed with the Noble in mind.

 

[mercucio]

The beefed-up aristocrat PC used in our game uses the aristocrat present in the DMG, with the following additions:

Bonus class skill: At 1st level, a noble may designate one cross-class skill as a class skill. This represents an area of “illicit” expertise.

Talents: At 1st level, 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the noble selects a talent from the Charismatic Hero talent trees (from D20 Modern).

Resource Access: as the Star Wars d20 noble.

Bonus Feats: at 4th level, and every four levels thereafter the noble gains any one general feat (not metamagic, item creation, wild, ect) as a bonus feat.

 

[Taluron]

If you have access to the Dragonlance CS book it has a core Noble class also.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft wrote :
Basically makes your webpage useless to me. If I as a DM
can't put up my own version on a campaign website for
players, what use is it to me?

Well, for one thing, you could link to my web page -- HTML is good at that linking thing I hear.

However, I've added an OGC-box to that page, so you should be good to go.

-- N

 

[Turanil]

(There's nothing in the Suggestion spell description that says it can't work on a sleeping person, so that they won't CONSCIOUSLY remember the suggestion. Suggestion : "Master Duelist Lord Other-Blackmailer has been insulting your honor. You must publicly challenge him to defend your honor." Especially effective if you've previously been using Alter Self to spread rumors.)

Excellent!! I love that!

A player who would do that in my campaign would automatically succeed the intended result (with maybe some unexpected side effect), and would get an important XP bonus!

 

[Vrecknidj]

I wrote :

> > [....] but in my experience, multiclassing cripples a spellcaster.

Vrecknidj aka Dave replied :

> In this particular campaign, arcane spellcasting is against the law.
> It's a very low magic world, and I play the only spellcaster PC. I
> took the other classes out of necessity so this character has a
> legitimate way of blending into the world.

Ow. And yet you still managed wizard 10? Who enforces this
law? The agents of the necromancer-king who wants no
competition? Some church? Must make life ... interesting.
Why wizard instead of sorcerer? Having to be careful about
spellbooks, being almost unable to buy spells, having to be
SO careful about even researching spells... Sounds like
you'd effectively have the limitations of the sorcerer
(limited spell selection) anyway.

(How are magic items limited? Detect Magic (from a cleric
or otherwise) can't tell if an item was made with divine or
arcane magic, but items might be confiscated on the mere
suspicion that a wizard created them.)

Let's see... An Ari 1/Exp 2/Wiz 10 should easily be able to
pretend to be an Ari 6/Exp 2. The important part is to not
get caught with a spellbook, and to not get caught casting
spells.

Other aristocrats should be digging into your PC's
activities for social advantage. Accusing a competing noble
of 'witchcraft' and being able to make the charge stick
should be quite effective. How many nobles are blackmailing
your PC?

Wizard 10... I assume she regularly, FROM HIDING, casts
Charm Monster on other nobles? That plus Suggestion should
be a good way to recover blackmail evidence, then force the
blackmailer into a duel with some third party that they
can't win.

(There's nothing in the Suggestion spell description that
says it can't work on a sleeping person, so that they won't
CONSCIOUSLY remember the suggestion. Suggestion : "Master
Duelist Lord Other-Blackmailer has been insulting your
honor. You must publicly challenge him to defend your
honor." Especially effective if you've previously been
using Alter Self to spread rumors.)

Okay, now I'm having ideas for history in my world.

--index

1) The "law" against arcane spells, spellcasters, and magic is enforced by the king. The campaign takes place in a modified real world in England, shortly after the Battle of Hastings. ("Modified" roughly means that Rome never fully fell, Egypt is a nation of necromancers, and the Black Forest really is full of monsters.) The king, however, isn't supported by all of his lords, and my character does a good job staying in lands where she can get by, or pretending to be someone else when in other lands. She has a number of aliases.

2) I chose wizard instead of sorcerer for lots of reasons. When I made this character I also made her background. Her mother was the daughter of a Roman and an Egyptian, and was an official ambassador for Egypt to Rome. She was practised in magic. Her father comes from a line of wizards who were only recently driven underground by the law. So, she has wizardry in her blood, and follows family traditions. Her father still lives and he belongs to a secret guild that operates in London. The guild runs a number of businesses (apothecary, calligraphy shop, bookstore, "potions" for the masses, etc.) that allow them to be legit in the law's eyes, but also allows for them to have labs, etc., in the back rooms and in the basements. Also, at the higher-up levels, there are people who serve the king who are handsomely paid to see to it that these folks are relatively unmolested and so their magical research continues.

3) Right, detect magic cannot tell the source. That's an advantage actually. If she's ever caught, she can try to Bluff her way out of things (a cleric gave it to me, honest).

3) Other lords and ladies indeed try to dig up dirt on my character. That adds to the fun.

4) Yes, yes, she specializes in mind-affecting magic. Actually, she's a diviner. (Her mother was lost at sea and her behind-the-scenes motivation is that she longs to find her mother. I've worked out some stuff with the DM so that he's worked out what actually happened to her mother and I don't know, so that way I can play this character with a bit more authenticity.) But, though she's a diviner, she happens to have 18s in both Int and Cha, and given the rest of her background, she ends up relying on the Cha more than the Int (okay, it's a feature of her Int that she seems to rely on her Cha more, but it's also a feature of her Cha that she can seem that way).

She's a blast to play. She currently is working with a small team of cavalier-ish fighter types who've been freeing elves from ogre slavers who live beyond the north wall up in Scotland (where the king's jurisdiction can't quite reach--she's had fun being more free with magic up there--I'm sure it'll come back to haunt her in London later). While there, she met another wizard, a lonely hermit of a guy who actually lives on an island in the sea. But, they've hit it off and have started swapping spells--so, she's just about to get a little tougher.

Dave