(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
drothgery said:
What kind of character wants to come back missing a level?
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PC spinning out of control
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What kind of character wants to come back missing a level?
Mishihari Lord
First Post
Squire James said:
I think this is a great idea. The biggest problem with the sorceror's tactic (from his POV) is that he is separated from the party and out of sight. If he gets into trouble, no one is going to know about it.
A combat is generally going to be pretty noisy, and monsters in the surrounding areas will come check it out if they're 1) intellligent, 2) tough, or 3) hungry. There's a very good chance that enemies will come up behind the party, and they'll hit the sorceror first. In a dungeon, the monsters don't even have to see the sorceror if there's enough of them or they're big enough to fill the passage. They'll just run into him. If there's a corner or door behind the sorceror, he won't see them coming, and with a door or earth floors, he may not hear them either, especially if he's focused on the fight ahead of him, which will be loud.
Some good monsters to use with this tactic include 20 orcs (there's nothing like getting owned by CR 1/2 monsters to shake you up), gelatinous cube, a flying stinging insect swarm, ghouls (paralysis is scary if you're all alone), dire wolves (or anything with scent), a beholder
, a basilisk (or anything with a gaze attack), a cloaker, and fiendish dire bats.Another point is that if the enemies are intelligent, they can reach a distant opponent, and if monsters start appearing when no one visible is casting, they'll know there's a caster hiding out back there. Lightning bolt is good in a straight passage. Monks are also good for running past the rest of the part to geek the sorceror.
If you're outside, dire bats are a good enemy.
The point of all this is not to kill the sorceror or nerf his abilities. It's to force a variation in tactics and challenge the party. Using the same tactics all the time gets really boring. Forcing the sorceror and party to vary their tactics will make the game more fun for everyone.
Last edited:
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
1. Minute-per-level spells only last through multiple fights if your party are morons who never prepare for a fight or explore between fights
2. Improved invisibility is 1 ROUND per level, and thus lasts for a single fight.
3. If other characters are dying because of this guy, then those characters and their friends should be telling him off for not doing his part. If I'm playing, and someone is using all his spells on protecting his own butt, then I'm going to be looking for another spellcaster to join the party. Just like if the 100+hitpoint heavily armoured tank decides to specialise in ranged combat and flee the front line every combat, I'm gonna be telling him to get back to the front lines, or we're ditching him. Your problem seems to be that the only person in your group that cares about his character's survival is this wizard. That's just stupid.
2. Improved invisibility is 1 ROUND per level, and thus lasts for a single fight.
3. If other characters are dying because of this guy, then those characters and their friends should be telling him off for not doing his part. If I'm playing, and someone is using all his spells on protecting his own butt, then I'm going to be looking for another spellcaster to join the party. Just like if the 100+hitpoint heavily armoured tank decides to specialise in ranged combat and flee the front line every combat, I'm gonna be telling him to get back to the front lines, or we're ditching him. Your problem seems to be that the only person in your group that cares about his character's survival is this wizard. That's just stupid.
Sounds to me like the player is being a jerk. The problem with using tactics against jerks is that they tend to feel put upon and say things like "Why are you picking on me?!"
The key is to get the player to stop being a jerk. Try to remind the player somehow that the point of the game is for EVERYbody to have fun and he is directly getting in the way of that. The problem there is that those things are delicate case by case proceedures.
If he happens to gripe that "I'm just playing my character's personality" then he should have no problem when the next player to roll up a rogue decides to coup de grace his sleeping body with a sneak attack/wyvern venomed arrowand blame it on some goblin that ran off.
We had a player who everybody hated once. Disruptive arrogant overly tactical jerk. His character "fell down a mine shaft." Onto some arrows. And swords. And magic missle spells. Wouldn't take a hint... had to take a beating.
The key is to get the player to stop being a jerk. Try to remind the player somehow that the point of the game is for EVERYbody to have fun and he is directly getting in the way of that. The problem there is that those things are delicate case by case proceedures.
If he happens to gripe that "I'm just playing my character's personality" then he should have no problem when the next player to roll up a rogue decides to coup de grace his sleeping body with a sneak attack/wyvern venomed arrowand blame it on some goblin that ran off.
We had a player who everybody hated once. Disruptive arrogant overly tactical jerk. His character "fell down a mine shaft." Onto some arrows. And swords. And magic missle spells. Wouldn't take a hint... had to take a beating.
What has me concerned is that the entire party (sans Sorc) gets whacked, but the Sorc wins the fight (presumably, since he's able to loot the bodies).
And this happened multiple times?!
I think either the Sorc is intentionally holding back early in the fight; or the party is not using good tactics.
If its the former, you should deal with it out of game. Or have some very cheezed of PCs deal with it in game.
If its the latter, you may need to give your players some friendly advice like:
If party members start dying, it may be a good time to retreat and regroup.
Don't start the fight while the Sorc starts summoning stuff. Let him spend a couple rounds summoning, THEN go fight en masse.
Or even better, send the summoned stuff in first.
A couple things you could try as DM also are:
You don't specify how the fights are breaking down. Are you attacking the PCs more than the critters? If so, that may be why the PCs die and the critters (and Sorc) win. If you attack the critters more, that should slow down party deaths and force the Sorc to expend more resources to replace dead critters.
Think like the bad guys. If you're in a fight with a bunch of humans, elves and whatnot and a bunch of dire apes (or blink dogs, or flying monkeys, or whatever he's summoning) come around the corner to back them up, even the dumbest orc is going to think to himself, "That aint right. I think there's something going on back there." Somebody's going to go see what's up, and they just might take their pet wolf (or something with scent/see invis) with them.
And this happened multiple times?!
I think either the Sorc is intentionally holding back early in the fight; or the party is not using good tactics.
If its the former, you should deal with it out of game. Or have some very cheezed of PCs deal with it in game.
If its the latter, you may need to give your players some friendly advice like:
If party members start dying, it may be a good time to retreat and regroup.
Don't start the fight while the Sorc starts summoning stuff. Let him spend a couple rounds summoning, THEN go fight en masse.
Or even better, send the summoned stuff in first.
A couple things you could try as DM also are:
You don't specify how the fights are breaking down. Are you attacking the PCs more than the critters? If so, that may be why the PCs die and the critters (and Sorc) win. If you attack the critters more, that should slow down party deaths and force the Sorc to expend more resources to replace dead critters.
Think like the bad guys. If you're in a fight with a bunch of humans, elves and whatnot and a bunch of dire apes (or blink dogs, or flying monkeys, or whatever he's summoning) come around the corner to back them up, even the dumbest orc is going to think to himself, "That aint right. I think there's something going on back there." Somebody's going to go see what's up, and they just might take their pet wolf (or something with scent/see invis) with them.
Saeviomagy said:
In addition to these excellent points I would like to add a few. I am not sure if I read this in the DMG or the DMG II, but any organization (with the exception of the most chaotic) will police their own areas. Your group should not be able to just rest and feel safe anywhere.
We have/had a player like this although our guy would cast two overland flight spells/day and go invisible at the first sign of a fight. It only took one encounter for the people sustaining the worst of the fight to let him know he could be helping them win instead of protecting his own hide. This then circulated and he heard about it from other npcs. I am a bit shocked by how many people are saying to metagame. See invisibility is a 2nd level spell and therefore should be about twice as prevelant as improved invisibility.
The DMG II has a page devoted to dealing with selfishness in campaigns.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Baramay said:
I'm a selfish cowardly wizard player, so I have to ask you, how is this not helping the group? Instead of throwing meatshields in front of him, the wizard spends exactly one round protecting himself. (Overland flight lasts long enough that he doesn't cast it in combat.) If invisibility were balanced (I think it isn't, though), how is this different from a wizard spending one round casting mirror image?
I think there's more to the story than you're telling us. Does he not cast spells every round? Is he casting more than one defense spell? Is he saving up spells for later on - because that's a different issue than being cowardly.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Regarding wealth, I haven't had this problem because my group tends to be the "get your character raised"-type. Rather than the "He's dead, roll up another"-type. However, it seems to me that a simple solution to the problem is to simply stop giving out treasure if the PCs loot their fallen buddies. They'll be over by some after splitting up their buddy's gear, but the problem will soon correct itself, assuming you don't keep giving them standard treasure to compound the issue.
Regarding the PC in general, I'd suggest first considering your battlefields. Perhaps start setting the combats in larger, more accessible areas, so enemies can reach the sorcerer. NPCs aren't stupid, and indeed many of them (fiends, dragons, etc.) are quite intelligent. Even if the sorcerer is hiding at the back of the party they're going to start throwing the nasty his way. First rule of adventuring: geek the spellcaster.
Also consider fighting fire with fire. Spellcasters are some of the most deadly opponents (as my adventuring group is learning, having just reached 13th-level.) A single Quickened See Invisibility + Disintegrate can really ruin a spellcaster's day. And really, what sorcerer or wizard is not going to be familiar enough with Fly + Invisibility to not prepare a counter for it? It is, after all, the oldest trick in the book.
Besides a single BBEG spellcaster, even mook spellcasters (standing behind their own meatshields!) casting area Dispel Magic multiple times can thwart the sorcerer's "hide and summon" tactic. A single potion of See Invisibility and a archer readying an action can ruin his flying and spellcasting, as well.
These are reasonable precautions that might show up from any villain group without fear of metagaming. After all, your sorcerer isn't exactly treading new ground here. He's using tried-and-true sorcerer tactics. But those are exactly the kind of tactics that others are going to have ready counters for.
If you still feel that this is metagaming, consider having a couple of the bad guys run away in the next few fights. Once they inform their master(s) of the group's fighting abilities, tactics will change. In the game I currently play in, for instance, all of us have rings of fire resistance of varying strengths. We weren't careful and allowed an enemy to get away, and now certain foes (sent from or a part of that villain group) prep electricity or cold spells instead. The rings are still useful, but they don't completely negate the enemy, because the enemy expects them.
You could also consider using Outsiders. You're getting to the point where you can throw some really nasty demons and devils at them...creatures smart enough to know to geek the spellcaster first, and with the abilities to do it.
Consider a glabrezu. CR 13, and with greater teleport at will, as well as Power Word: Stun 1/day. Once he identifies the sorcerer, he's quite smart enough (Int 16) to decide to take out the spellcaster. One Power Word: Stun + Greater Teleport and he's in a position to tear the sorcerer apart.
Regarding the PC in general, I'd suggest first considering your battlefields. Perhaps start setting the combats in larger, more accessible areas, so enemies can reach the sorcerer. NPCs aren't stupid, and indeed many of them (fiends, dragons, etc.) are quite intelligent. Even if the sorcerer is hiding at the back of the party they're going to start throwing the nasty his way. First rule of adventuring: geek the spellcaster.
Also consider fighting fire with fire. Spellcasters are some of the most deadly opponents (as my adventuring group is learning, having just reached 13th-level.) A single Quickened See Invisibility + Disintegrate can really ruin a spellcaster's day. And really, what sorcerer or wizard is not going to be familiar enough with Fly + Invisibility to not prepare a counter for it? It is, after all, the oldest trick in the book.
Besides a single BBEG spellcaster, even mook spellcasters (standing behind their own meatshields!) casting area Dispel Magic multiple times can thwart the sorcerer's "hide and summon" tactic. A single potion of See Invisibility and a archer readying an action can ruin his flying and spellcasting, as well.
These are reasonable precautions that might show up from any villain group without fear of metagaming. After all, your sorcerer isn't exactly treading new ground here. He's using tried-and-true sorcerer tactics. But those are exactly the kind of tactics that others are going to have ready counters for.
If you still feel that this is metagaming, consider having a couple of the bad guys run away in the next few fights. Once they inform their master(s) of the group's fighting abilities, tactics will change. In the game I currently play in, for instance, all of us have rings of fire resistance of varying strengths. We weren't careful and allowed an enemy to get away, and now certain foes (sent from or a part of that villain group) prep electricity or cold spells instead. The rings are still useful, but they don't completely negate the enemy, because the enemy expects them.
You could also consider using Outsiders. You're getting to the point where you can throw some really nasty demons and devils at them...creatures smart enough to know to geek the spellcaster first, and with the abilities to do it.
Consider a glabrezu. CR 13, and with greater teleport at will, as well as Power Word: Stun 1/day. Once he identifies the sorcerer, he's quite smart enough (Int 16) to decide to take out the spellcaster. One Power Word: Stun + Greater Teleport and he's in a position to tear the sorcerer apart.
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