PCGen sellout

[Nine Hands]

Calm down Negative Nancy

Just because you have to pay for something now, does not mean anyone sold out. Your probably just angry cause you didn't get included

I guess you live in a country that does not have copyright laws or your rather Chaotic in alignment and therefore don't care. Do you also kick cats on the way to work, because you can?

I saw you other post of the PCGen yahoo group and it seems you are trying to create a stir and your a little late

Just sit back, crack open a beer and chill. Eventually CMP will decide on thier cost plan (remember everything mentioned about price has not been finalized yet).

Nine Hands

 

[HellHound]

Nine Hands, just because you put smilies at the end of each insult doens't mean you can or should be resorting to personal attacks on a person's credibility.

"Your probably just angry cause you didn't get included... do you also kick cats ont eh way to work, because you can?... it seems you are trying to create a stir"

Smilies or not, that is a really unpleasant way to deal with someone, and personally I find it repugnant.

 

[Henry]

Nine Hands, please do not disparage other forum members that way. It's perfectly fine to disagree, but assumptions about where they live and why they believe the things they do doesn't make it kosher.

By the same token, it's not kosher to slam the Code MOnkey Publishing staff for their hard work. If you don't like the deal, and think it's a bad step, that's fine - but Mynex and crew don't need any ulterior motives attributed to them; they're evil enough just by themselves.

 

[Psion]

Looks like a big step backwards for PCGen to me.

How?

PCGen could not have continued putting out the copyrighted material without permission. That's a fact. If you are the type of person who doesn't give a damn about the propriety of the situation, then just grab the data sets when they show up on your favorite share engines. But if you want to use the material, paying the price requested is the right thing to do.

Now they can distribute that data, albeit at a cost. That is still a step forward, where it would have only supported such material with rogue projects. It is far better to have new datasets at a price than no new datasets at all. And even if you don't pay, all the free content is still out there and will continue to be developed.

 

[Psion]

PCGen is still free only if you you continue to use only the material that is in it now. There is no difference whatsoever between what you will get for free before the deal and after. No Anthony's mojo is by far the stronger since he has in one deal resurected e-tools and priced PCGen out of buisness when they compeat on a level playing field of information. I thought the code monkeys were working on a deal that would give the non-SRD data back for free in exchange for other work, instead it will be priced such that if you use WotC material it will be cheaper to buy e-tools than use PCGen.

Wrong. Etool data sets cost too.

Bottom line: you want to use WotC IP, you have to pay for it. Welcome to reality. You don't like it, I highly recommend that you shift away from using the core materials and to using open content which will be supported for free. There is plenty of it out there.

 

[Gizzard]

What I found odd about the announcement was that Wizards is hiring a team with 1) a lot of qualifications in managing D&D source data, 2) qualifications in Java programming, 3) no qualifications in C or C++? (Does CMP have C experience from separate projects? If so, why that horrible Java language?)

Anyway, while its really cool to have a good long term architecture for dealing with the data, CMP's first e-Tools milestone is 90 days away with someone elses code (if I remember the commentary correctly!) They arent going to have time to gut e-Tools and make it work like PCGen; they are looking at two tasks:

1) Figure out what makes e-Tools tick; understand the existing code.
2) Make whatever changes are necessary to meet the first milestone.

Now, thats assuming they are looking at a long term relationship with the e-Tools code. They could be looking at this like mod-authors; that they just are going to mod the data but that would be a not very much of a solution. Ie, the bulk of whats wrong with e-Tools would stay wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for the Open Source question. The PCGen guys carried the ball for a long time, and if its time for them to move on, then so be it. For those of you crying about this, Open Source doesnt mean "Free Stuff For ME Forever!". Open Source gives everyone an opportunity to make a contribution. If you feel that PCGen will die without some help, then DL the source and do some pro bono work on your own.

 

[narg]

new e-tools wizards agreement

just wondering how people feel about the agreement between wizards and cmp that basically ruin all the user made mods made to date.... it figures wizards would hire a bunch of guys named code monkeys, seeing as how i'm pretty sure a bunch of monkeys coded the original e-tools.

 

[Ysgarran]

Wrong. Etool data sets cost too.

Bottom line: you want to use WotC IP, you have to pay for it. Welcome to reality. You don't like it, I highly recommend that you shift away from using the core materials and to using open content which will be supported for free. There is plenty of it out there.

There is nothing preventing you from creating your own data sets. The real limitation is the amount of time that it costs. I've created a number of 'lst' files for my own use out of a number of the MMII creatures and a large number of Green Ronin products. Now, I did pay for the books.
I have personally found PCGen to be useless if I didn't actually own the books for a reference.

Eventually a real LST editor will become available that will make the creation of the files that PCGen uses even easier and much quicker.

Ysgarran.

 

[Henry]

What I found odd about the announcement was that Wizards is hiring a team with 1) a lot of qualifications in managing D&D source data, 2) qualifications in Java programming, 3) no qualifications in C or C++? (Does CMP have C experience from separate projects? If so, why that horrible Java language?)

The reason for "that horrible" Java is that PCGen is intentionally a cross-platform application. You can use it on Windows/Mac OS/Linux/Unix/ Any operating system that can run Java programs.

Also, just because the coders in question work in Java does not mean they have no experience in C; most skilled coders nowadays have proficiency with several languages.

Anyway, while its really cool to have a good long term architecture for dealing with the data, CMP's first e-Tools milestone is 90 days away with someone elses code (if I remember the commentary correctly!)

I do not know personally, but I am working on the assumption that the coders in charge of this project have been looking at the source code for E-Tools longer than we've known aout this deal. Why do I say this? Because they stated publically that they offered WotC a "confident" estimate of 90 days for the patch of the specific issues in queestion. This means they have been looking at the code long enough to make an estimate.

Now, thats assuming they are looking at a long term relationship with the e-Tools code. They could be looking at this like mod-authors; that they just are going to mod the data but that would be a not very much of a solution. Ie, the bulk of whats wrong with e-Tools would stay wrong.

In their statement at www.codemonkeypublishing.com , their list of changes are not mod changes; they are actual code fixes they are looking at.

Now, for the Open Source question. The PCGen guys carried the ball for a long time, and if its time for them to move on, then so be it. For those of you crying about this, Open Source doesnt mean "Free Stuff For ME Forever!". Open Source gives everyone an opportunity to make a contribution. If you feel that PCGen will die without some help, then DL the source and do some pro bono work on your own. [/B]

I agree here - anyone who feels they can make a better contribution, so be it - but such contribution needs to be legal. Right now, it is the IMPROVEMENT of their product over time that is causing the unrest, and I for one find that tremendously ironic. Very few people have expressed any desire to get the non-SRD material for free; more however, are concerned with the possibility that the LST material will become unusable inside of a year.

 

[bushfire]

just wondering how people feel about the agreement between wizards and cmp that basically ruin all the user made mods made to date.... it figures wizards would hire a bunch of guys named code monkeys, seeing as how i'm pretty sure a bunch of monkeys coded the original e-tools.

I think it is the best thing that could have happened for eTools. Think about it, everything eTools users have been screaming about for the last two years is going to happen:

- bug fixes, especially by a team that has a proven track record of RPG software (especially D&D/D20)
- updated data from the splatbooks and other Wotc books licensed from Wotc
- commitment to future product improvements

None of the above things were ever promised by Wotc (except maybe for bug fixes). The chances of Wotc/Fluid ever making new data sets available or improvements to the program were getting dimmer and dimmer as time went on and most users had written them off totally.

Not just the Wotc stuff but with an active company doing the coding there is a very good chance that you may see some non-wotc data sets available. There are probably many people that would pay to have the Scarred Lands or Kalamar data (or Tome of Horrors!!!!) available for download from CMP (note: not just the OGC but also the IP). Having CMP provide licensed Wotc data could be just the start.

As far as the exsisting user made mods . . .

Not to slam the time and talent that went into creating the mods, but how many of them were really fully complete and working?? I can't think of a single splatbook that had every feat/PrC input and working correctly. Even the monster files were not complete (special abilities in user notes for example).

Most of these problems were due to limitations to eTools not the talent of the users. People had to come up with some creative work arounds to get what little is available working as well as it does.

So I think the Wotc/CMP deal is going to be great for eTools. It is nice to know the program you payed for is actually going to have a future.

As far as the effects on PCGen, I don't know since I don't use it. But I somehow doubt CMP's intention is to somehow "ruin" PCGen.