Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
I would go with 4 or 5 fights a day but make fights more dangerous.
PCs hoarding Daily Powers
- Thread starter Goonalan
- Start date
It would have to strongly disagree with some of Kamikaze Midget and some of the others advice here. That type of thing smacks of trying to enforce a play style on your players.
How they play with what they have is up to them and tweaking encounters to make them play a certain way so you can see that play is tantamount to railroading. This is not really good DM conduct.
If they can win fair encounters w/o a daily, let them.
How they play with what they have is up to them and tweaking encounters to make them play a certain way so you can see that play is tantamount to railroading. This is not really good DM conduct.
If they can win fair encounters w/o a daily, let them.
I promise you I'm not railroading, as I said earlier I'm playing the H series, and we are all working together to enact each of the players campaign arcs- there's lots of e-mails between sessions about what the players want to do in the long run.
In game the combat encounters are taking too long, and the players have also stated since starting this thread that they 'are' hoarding thei Daily Powers for no good reason.
I think we've fixed it, or at least come to an agreement, more Dailies are going to get spent.
As to some of the other suggestions-
Most days the Pcs only get through 5-6 encounters.
I mix lower level encounters with higher level encounters.
Making the fights more dangerous isn't going to work, the PCs are taking an hour and a half getting through Level +4 fights, I think more/harder creatures is just going to increase the time in combat- even with Daily usage. As I stated above I've been upto Level +8, just for kicks- the players loved it, it took three hours to play out the fight- all low level creatures save the big guy. But again it's not something I want to do often.
Easier fights is also not going to work, I've done this, an entire day of level -1 to -4 fights and the players don't spend any Daily Powers. I've tried this tactic with a Level +6 fight at the end- big bad (players spend Dailys only in the big fight), and without the big bad (players spend no Dailies at all- or very few).
Tell the players this is a hard fight- yep, done that, amped the enemy, recurring villains (some of the fights have been very personal- with PCs wanting the bad guy DESTROYED for what they did in the past). No matter what I tell them... they play it by ear. They don't use Daily Powers unless they really have to.
Some of the other suggestions from Kamikaze Midget do seem a little extreme, hey I'm not saying... if it works for you go for it, and thanks for sharing- as Ace say though I don't want to railroad the PCs.
Well-rounded group, oh yeah they sure are- Wizard (Eladrin is as slippery as hell with two get out of jail immediate inerrupts/reactions; and the Teleport)- and he brings the heat. Two Fighters that leave everything in their reach marked to hell in seconds (and good defences). High defence Cleric with good attack pattern- can hold his own against the big bads (sometimes). Assassin spends most of the encounter in and out of insubstantial and good at getting out of trouble. The weak link (or so it seems, still- see one of my previous threads) is the Monk, who is ALWAYS the first to get through his Healing Surges, and is almost ALWAYS in need of a Healing Word.
So, to reiterate, my players have agreed to let the reins slip a little on their Daily Powers, they're as frustrated as I am with the mental barrier they seem to have erected around them. They're going to start to monitor more closely party resources, specifically Healing Surges- it seems to always come as a surprise to them that one of the PCs is down to 0 Healing Surges 'already', as I say the problem is the players are evenly spced around the globe and not at the table all the time, and so miss things often- we've spoken about this before as a group, we love to game but none of us can guarantee that real life stays on hold.
So thanks, I'll reread all of this thread again and take what I need, feed back the various suggestions to the players and in the long term work on a solution- that's if the new Daily Power concord fails to work.
Again, thanks.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
How about giving a carrot to entice their use? "All right guys, all dailies used in this dungeon have 1 extra point of critical hit range. Have fun!"
Just make sure to include at least a couple bad guys that have daily powers.
-blarg
Just make sure to include at least a couple bad guys that have daily powers.
-blarg
Honestly people of certain personalities behave that way. Heck I am like that too; in most video games I end up almost not using consumables for instance. Since I recognized that my players have a similar behaviour I simply decided to give them incentives so we can have more realistic adventuring days and healing surges can actually matter more. So at the second milestone and each one after that they regen the lowest level daily attack power they have used that day and on the third milestone they also regen the lowest level daily utility power they have used. I make up for that by pushing them hard on encounters (I also give them a lot of consumables; but I am very specific about treasure so that would be an entire thread).
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Goonalan, I just clued in that your party is level 11. For what it's worth, our party recently hit paragon tier, and I noticed a DEFINITE upgrade in our capacity to shred monsters. Last session one of our rogues killed a monster outright in two hits, which I had not seen happen at all in 4e.
As a result of the increased badassitude, I think we're using our dailies less often. Heck, we don't even get through all our encounter powers sometimes.
-blarg
As a result of the increased badassitude, I think we're using our dailies less often. Heck, we don't even get through all our encounter powers sometimes.
-blarg
Aberzanzorax
Hero
IMO you've done a reasonable and smart thing, that unfortunately, has exacerbated the issue rather than helping to resolve it.
The players seem timid/fearful...and their dailies are like "insurance" that they'll have a whopper for when things get out of control.
So, to encourage them to use dailies, you've made fights HARDER...trying to FORCE the use of dailies...which makes sense...BUT...
Then they know there are going to be situations that will force them to use them...FOR WHICH THEY WILL HOARD THEM ALL THE MORE.
You've proven their strategy to be correct...there really are situations which they need to save the dailies for, that they'd really regret not having them for.
To teach people courage/remove timidity, a graded series of increasingly difficult challenges to their fear (not challenges to the characters here) is usually the best way to go.
I'd do this:
1. They get to daily rest after 3 encounters REGULARLY...Force them to use dailies not through challenging them, but by making them bored if they don't use em. Make the dailies currency, not insurance.
2. Do this reliably. Frustrate them with easiness. Make it so the lives of their characters are charmed and dull...but the combats are boring grinds unless they whip out the dailies, which make the fights go faster.
*Basically teach them that all the benefits of daily use you espouse are true.*
3. Once they're comfortable with using them, and using them a lot, up the ante. On some "days", i.e. character rest days, make this 4 encounters, randomly, but only do so if they have used at least a few dailies. Here you are teaching them that, despite the fact that they've used some dailies, they still overcome all odds. You teach them that they can take risk (use dailies) and not have their fears realized (they die because they don't have dailies in reserve). I'd do this, maybe once every three "days".
4. Keep the standard 3 encounters per day (the super saftey zone), and sometimes when you throw a random 4 encounters in the day...instead make it 5 or 6. The idea is to have have it random and for them to be rewarded with an exceedingly successful day.
5. Ideally, eventually, the players will learn to "test their world" and be bold with daily use. If you ever throw a "you can't win this fight without dailies" fight at them during this process, you can expect to basically set them back to their current "fear" or "timidity".
ALTERNATELY: They (and you) LIKE the way you're DMing and they're playing. If this is the case...don't change a thing.
The players seem timid/fearful...and their dailies are like "insurance" that they'll have a whopper for when things get out of control.
So, to encourage them to use dailies, you've made fights HARDER...trying to FORCE the use of dailies...which makes sense...BUT...
Then they know there are going to be situations that will force them to use them...FOR WHICH THEY WILL HOARD THEM ALL THE MORE.
You've proven their strategy to be correct...there really are situations which they need to save the dailies for, that they'd really regret not having them for.
To teach people courage/remove timidity, a graded series of increasingly difficult challenges to their fear (not challenges to the characters here) is usually the best way to go.
I'd do this:
1. They get to daily rest after 3 encounters REGULARLY...Force them to use dailies not through challenging them, but by making them bored if they don't use em. Make the dailies currency, not insurance.
2. Do this reliably. Frustrate them with easiness. Make it so the lives of their characters are charmed and dull...but the combats are boring grinds unless they whip out the dailies, which make the fights go faster.
*Basically teach them that all the benefits of daily use you espouse are true.*
3. Once they're comfortable with using them, and using them a lot, up the ante. On some "days", i.e. character rest days, make this 4 encounters, randomly, but only do so if they have used at least a few dailies. Here you are teaching them that, despite the fact that they've used some dailies, they still overcome all odds. You teach them that they can take risk (use dailies) and not have their fears realized (they die because they don't have dailies in reserve). I'd do this, maybe once every three "days".
4. Keep the standard 3 encounters per day (the super saftey zone), and sometimes when you throw a random 4 encounters in the day...instead make it 5 or 6. The idea is to have have it random and for them to be rewarded with an exceedingly successful day.
5. Ideally, eventually, the players will learn to "test their world" and be bold with daily use. If you ever throw a "you can't win this fight without dailies" fight at them during this process, you can expect to basically set them back to their current "fear" or "timidity".
ALTERNATELY: They (and you) LIKE the way you're DMing and they're playing. If this is the case...don't change a thing.
LightPhoenix
First Post
I've had two very different experiences with Dailies.
My first group, in which I was a player, was very defensively oriented. We only have three players - I was a Wizard, others were a Cleric and a Fighter. None of us were really great at dealing out damage, but we were also tough as hell to actually wear down. In this instance, we tended to use roughly one daily per encounter, especially once we got more than one.
My second group, of which I'm the DM, is an Avenger, a Ranger, and a Bard. Loads of strikery-goodness, and most definitely a reaction to the previous group. Lots of damage (Executioner's Axe on the Avenger, Greatbow on the Ranger), lots of re-rolls, extra dice, and situational bonuses. I'm finding that they're tearing through enemies even with their Encounter powers. So thus far they haven't used a single Daily. I'm hoping the dragon changes that...
My point with this is that I think Daily use is very dependent on the group you have. Daily powers, by their very nature, tend towards being Striker-y. Groups with high-damage output will tend to use them less, and groups with low-damage output will tend to use them more.
My first group, in which I was a player, was very defensively oriented. We only have three players - I was a Wizard, others were a Cleric and a Fighter. None of us were really great at dealing out damage, but we were also tough as hell to actually wear down. In this instance, we tended to use roughly one daily per encounter, especially once we got more than one.
My second group, of which I'm the DM, is an Avenger, a Ranger, and a Bard. Loads of strikery-goodness, and most definitely a reaction to the previous group. Lots of damage (Executioner's Axe on the Avenger, Greatbow on the Ranger), lots of re-rolls, extra dice, and situational bonuses. I'm finding that they're tearing through enemies even with their Encounter powers. So thus far they haven't used a single Daily. I'm hoping the dragon changes that...
My point with this is that I think Daily use is very dependent on the group you have. Daily powers, by their very nature, tend towards being Striker-y. Groups with high-damage output will tend to use them less, and groups with low-damage output will tend to use them more.
Similar Threads
