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PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

Ace said:


Or less extreme Okay I am a 15th levl fighter and have killed 300 men, I am supposed to bow and scrape to you?

300 men's not that many, plenty of real-world warriors have killed similar numbers over a career. If you have a game where PCs can make 15th level fairly easily, logically the King will either be15th+ level himself or at least will have several bodyguard knights of similar levels. Forgetting this is a common mistake of neophyte GMs, one I've certainly been guilty of myself (eg I once made the Palace Guard of a small state (pop 30,000) all 1st level Fighters, when they should have been more like 50 F1 25 F2 12 F3 6 F4 3 F5 2 F6 1 F8, or similar, maybe higher).
 

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BTW 1st ed DMG Town Encounter Table suggests that 50% of nobles are fighters (80%) or clerics (20%) of level 5-12 (d8+4). I wouldn't suggest that the actual level distribution should be that linear, but it supports my point - many medieval lords will be fairly high-level fighters (et al).
 

Re: Don't know if some1 has already pointed this out...but...

Ruvion said:


I believe it was Robert E. Howard that wrote Conan (although Heinlein is also a respectable sci-fi/fantasy author that dealt a lot of human condition issues in his novels).

Furthermore, it was Ron Hubbard that started Scientology, not Heinlein. Heinlein is famous for having invented "powered armors", or exoskeleton armor, in Starship Troopers.

And IIRC, the bet was between Frank Herbert (Dune) and Lafayette Ron Hubbard, about which would make the most convincing sci-fi religion. Herbert make the Bene Gesserit. Hubbard won the bet by actually creating the Scientology sect.

Howard, Heinlein, Herbert, Hubbard... Why do they all have to start with a 'H' ? Oh well, at least we don't have Hance, Helazny Heiber or Holkien. ;)
 

I killed them,l well almost

Well I killed them, almost

They trashed the local tavern as was their wont in other DMs games. then resisted arrest, so 2 ranks of archers behind 2 ranks of pikemen, + officers the overwhelming odds made them decide to retire from the city and miss out on a lot of stuff.

The other route i take is to humiliate them. Insult the local NPC? Oh really. casted charm and suggestion etc so they had to be his friend. Then he had the worst offenders commit indecent sexual activity with their steeds. In front of the others. this is brought up over 8 years after the event.

the NPCs dont have to take the crap they give out. If they want to kill the Npc that gives them the quest then so be it. if they are rude to him then so be it, they dont get hte job and the game is screwed and they know it. Just be hard but fair. (well its not equaltarian but fair)

The king has guards, assassins, mages, etc etc at his disposal.
use them.
 

arcady raises some interesting points: although fantasy doesn't default to a caste system per se, there is a distinction between commoners and nobles, and kings and lords of various stripes do exist. Since these same fantasy worlds also have (typically) much more modern values about the worth of individuals, and commoners can often read and live a (relatively) luxurious life, exactly how does this system look and what makes it last? I think few settings actually explore this.

In my latest reasonably well-developed setting, the PCs are agents of the government of a certain kingdom. The "kingdom" is actually a "biumvirate" (if such a word can be made to exist) with appointed positions of authority from out of the noble class. Much as in modern Britain, individuals who are not noble can also gain quite a bit of money, power and influence, although it rarely passes down into future generations like noble titles and influence do.

The system is maintained because most nobles are not only fairly high level individuals themselves (artificially advanced: they don't often risk their necks killing hordes of orcs and the like, they gain their levels through training) but have staffs of highly trained and experienced experts. Crack soldier units of 8-12 level fighters (or more, as needed.) High level priest and mage advisors and councilors. Access to teams of assassins, if need be. Etc.
 

I think in a caste society, some classes would not be achievable by everyone. Notably, Cleric and Wizard would be exclusive to the upper castes, while bard, ranger and rogue would be for lower castes. Druids and barbarian would be outcast (maybe ranger too), Paladin (depending on the vision you have of them) would either be exclusive to the high class or found anywhere, and Fighter would be found anywhere. Sorcerer, Psion, and Psychic Warrior are a different matter, as these classes are not trained. However, maybe they could have their own caste and be outed from their previous when their powers are discovered.

You'll found that the player will get a sense of respect if all they can play are fighter, bard and rogue and the aristocracy is made of clerics and wizards, wich are, say, 8 levels higher than them...

Also, don't hesitate to show by roleplay that everyone bow before and respect their superiors. Use rumors. Little folk easily exagerate the deeds and power of the higher ones. If every townsfolk is afraid of upsetting the Prince, who is rumored to hold terrible powers over the flesh and mind, your players may be circumspect. Even if he's in reality just a fifth-level enchanter with some flashy illusion spells as well. If your player act stupidly, only you know that he's just 5th level. You can thus change him to 15th, or 25th, level on the spot. Sure, they may wonder why such a powerful being don't take care of that ogre tribe by himself, but remember he has other things to do, like managing his country, hanging with his concubines, trying a new ceremonial uniform...
 
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It looks like there are several active topics here. Arcady, your original post says that you have a problem with how your players are treating the caste social system in your game, which is to say they have a total disregard for nobility and the order of the game. I say players instead of characters because I'm confident your beef is with the behavior of the players, not the alignment or background upbringing of their character. I have a couple of questions if this is the case.

First, are any of these characters lawful in alignment? I don't want to get into a heated debate about what exactly "lawful" is, but I feel personally that Lawful PCs are supposed to respect the established order of things, if the society itself has strong structure. Any players that have lawfully aligned characters facing a truly lawful ruler should have a little talking to about alignment. At this point I should make the disclaimer that if the group has a paladin, and there's a tyrant on the throne, I would say the paladin or any L/G character should be working to overthrow that tyrant. As a counterpoint any L/G character should still show proper respect simply due to their lawful nature.

Secondly, were the characters raised away from this type of society? I know the answer is probably no, but if these characters are the type of wilderness people that literally live under a rock and don't interact with society, you seriously can't expect much.

Lastly, and this is where most of the conversation has been going, how powerful (game mechanically) are these characters? This is a trick question, because it really shouldn't matter. The key here is the players that are running these characters may feel their characters are so powerful they no longer need to give this respect. It may not have anything to do with the actual power of the players, but in my experience players running 1st-5th level characters don't irritate a lot of NPCs.

It is the players that need to be taught to have this kind of respect in their game, and that requires a healthy dose of FUD.

There are two ways to teach players: actively and passively. As the DM, you directly control every aspect of the game, except for the minds of the players. You can take them aside and tell them of your expectations of their behavior in this social system. Unfortunately, in my experience that tends to create resentful players who will make characters and behave just barely within your guidelines and frustrate you. Not all players will behave like this but in this situation I can forsee the strong possibility it will. A good example I can draw from was in my old monotheistic game, where my wish was pretty simple: everyone worships Mystra (the one goddess). I'd say about 50% of the players immediately made up their minds to not worship her and be apathetic about the whole situation. The situation had to be rectified by not allowing healing spells affect them from priestesses. Of course, inflict wounds worked great. This method tends to butt heads with the players, and makes the gaming experience less enjoyable overall. This is also why DM's that railroad their players into plot threads commonly end up with dissatisfied players. It also helps to be proactive and not reactive, as seen in prior posts.

Passive teaching works wonders on players whose "style" of role-playing differs from yours. As I said before a healthy dose of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt will control your players without them feeling like they're being manipulated. For example, my players also have this problem with authority. Granted, they're all Chaotic Good or C/N in alignment, but I agree that a certain amound of respect, even if it's insincere, should be given by the players to their respective lords. The few days before these characters traveled to a warlord's keep, word of their pilgramage took like wind to the villagers. Soon word got back to the party that they probably shouldn't go visiting Azukhar since he's a vampire. Is it true? Do the players really want to find out? To top things off, Azukhar arranged their visit to take place at night. Throw in a few lines from Bram Stoker's Dracula in their dinner conversation with Azukhar, and FUD was assured. Is Azukhar a vampire? And who's that robed half-orc standing next to his throne? This may not be your style of GMing, but it can be used to a lesser degree.

Subtle hints go a long way to observant players. As a noble would, show the power of their wealth/militarty strength in parades, or "horse maneuvers", where players would see a dozen mounted knights engaging in sport. Be less subtle; have a supplicant address the noble as you would have it done, and show that the supplicant recieves what he wanted, even if the noble is a jerk or even evil. If you haven't run a horror RPG lately, I strongly recommend it. It is a great challenge for a GM because you have to make the players afraid. It helps refine your control over the players sympathies and emotions. "The strongest human emotion is fear, and the strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown."

Like B.F. Skinner, monitor the condition/response of your players and you will have control of their actions almost unconsciously.

As an afterthought, I hope nobody takes this post as an insult to their intelligence or DMing abilities. I'm not trying to be patronizing, just trying to help.
 

A few points....

(1) People seem to be confusing caste with class. Although there are some similarities, a caste-based society is quite different from a class-based one -- and medieval Europe was most definitely not caste-based (compare to India or Japan).

(2) If you're indeed using a feudal setting (rather than the default "high renassaince" of most published WOTC worlds), consider the following: people will be poor, only the "lords" really have any wealth. There is no middle class -- towns are not significant at this point in history, as the "merchant class" hasn't really developed. Guilds are not significant forces, if they exist at all -- most crafts are master-apprentice. These are significant variations from a "traditional" D&D setting. You can play in such a game (and I have), but be aware of the changes you need to make.

(3)"Adventuring" is not a concept that fits into such a setting, certainly not if the PCs are commoners. They would most likely be tied to their lord's land as serfs. You might be able to use them as knights or agents of their lord, but then they're not strictly "commoners" (this is the method that generall works best in this type of game). If they are truly independent "adventurers" of some sort (mercanaries, thieves, gypsies, etc.), then they do not fit into the standard social hierarchy. While this will give them some independence, they will generally be looked upon with suspicion or outright hostility by "normal" folk.

(4) Now even in a more traditional D&D campaign, there will be class differences that should be recognized. But it's very unlikely that PCs will be typical commoners -- in fact, I'd argue that the nature of the game (and the fact that PCs aren't of the "commoner" class) necessitates that. They will probably be either people of some status or wealth, or outside normal societal conventions (note: there are disadavantages to this, though not as much as in a truly feudal setting). Cities and towns are much more developed in a standard D&D game -- historically, by the Renaissance, towns often had a great deal of independence from the local nobility, as the king enjoyed the benefits of taxing their wealth. Since most PCs aren't farmers, craftsman, or soldiers (with some exceptions), they will not be completely at the mercy of landed or titled nobility.
 

what about the church?

All this discussion of "caste" systems (something of a misnomer) in fantasy games brought another question to my mind -- what about the role of religious organizations in games? Historically, the Catholic church had a great deal of power (abbots and monk did not during medieval times, but had alot of wealth during the Renassaince). The church, though, was somewhat monolithic (before the various "heresies" and the Reformation) -- a typical D&D setting has a multitude of gods. But these priests would certainly have social power, even if not political, due to the very real magic they can wield. Given the "problems" people seem to have with class distinctions and relations (which, I would argue, isn't so great a problem as some have made it to be in this thread), how do you deal with religious power? What political/social power do churches have in these games? What limits them? Do your players respond appropriately?
 

A different side of this problem

I have this problem from a slightly different angle. I have a player who is a second son of a local duke and a miracle worker ( most religious functionaries can't perform miracles, so the few who can are quite notable). Given this one-two punch, he should expect and get deference and consideration from many of the NPCs in the area. Quite a few of the other characters are members of the Duke's household (elite guards-in-training, assistants to advisors, and so on--none of them are truly commoners, who wouldn't have had access to specialized training anyway). My problem is that the player doesn't have his character use the power at his disposal! (talk about an ununsual situation). I continually have NPCs bow and scrape and offer to do him favors, but he rarely takes the initiative.

I think the main problem is a poor fit--the character is the linchpin of some larger plot hooks, but the player isn't up to the job. But perhaps some of the issues that have been brought up in this thread would be relevant. To make the social system of a campaign world relevant and interesting to players, shouldn't potential power (the ability to call in favors, get bureaucracy circumvented, get your court cases thrown out, etc.) be used as a carrot to go with the stick of punishment for uppity behavior? And what if the carrots don't work?
 

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