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PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

Re: Taxes and Economics

He is neither.

What he is really is about to be dead for stealing the treasure an adventurer gained by killing a dragon.

Rule #1 - If you cannot kill a dragon then do not attempt to steal from someone who CAN kill a dragon. ;)


wolff96 said:


OOC: Now there's only one question. Is this king lawful good: because he IS helping everyone or lawful evil: manipulating his power for his own gain, since he will have -- long-term -- a happier and more productive kingdom which grants him more wealth and power and -- short-term -- the entire hoard?
 

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Whoever said that your 'typical' fantasy society had a caste system? I'd say that's the first fallacy here. Your typical fantasy has fairly egalitarian values. Technology is medieval (sorta) but societal constructs are not in the least.

Not only that, the feudal "caste" structure was a blip on the radar of western history. The Romans, the Celts, the early Germanic peoples: none of them had anything really like it. Any reasonably successful warchief from any lick-spittle barbarian tribe had a reasonable chance at being proclaimed Emperor if he could get armies behind him, as actually happened numerous times.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Whoever said that your 'typical' fantasy society had a caste system? I'd say that's the first fallacy here. Your typical fantasy has fairly egalitarian values. Technology is medieval (sorta) but societal constructs are not in the least.

Not only that, the feudal "caste" structure was a blip on the radar of western history. The Romans, the Celts, the early Germanic peoples: none of them had anything really like it. Any reasonably successful warchief from any lick-spittle barbarian tribe had a reasonable chance at being proclaimed Emperor if he could get armies behind him, as actually happened numerous times.

Absolutely correct! And as I tried to point out earlier, the "typical" fantasy setting is not really medieval -- at least not in a historical Western European sense. It's closer to Renaissance, when there was an emerging middle class.
 

Oh, the Romans had a caste system of sorts, with slaves, plebians, equites & patricians making up the society.

Homeric Greece did also.
 

I have followed this discussion with interest as it rather touches a nerve with me, I think that all too often PCs aren't willing to engage constructively with their non-combat environment. Instead other people exist primarily to service their needs, whether that be providing goods or acting as employers. After all, that deference that so many here think that their characters can just ignore is simple acknowledgement of who holds the power - and it's not usually the PCs! Don't respect that lord because he hires a PC to deal with his problems? It might be because he's weak, but all too likely it's because he's preserving his own people and using disposables (the PCs) instead! And having used them, he's kept his own people secure (and uninjured?).

As for the setup of 'typical' D&D society, say as evinced in the DMG, I would say that it is emphatically not egalitarian! Look at the power structures it suggests. Rather it is meritocratic - the most competent and potent people rise to the top of the heap. So giving lip to that lord, or guildmaster or temple leader is just plain foolish. Likely he or she will be amongst the strongest (i.e. highest level) people in the area.

I would suggest that DMs make a point of reminding PCs that they are not living in glorious isolation in the world. They may be powerful, but they aren't the only movers and shakers. Indeed in the big picture, if they make a point of crossing the powerful, they are may be strong, but they are going to end up friendless and thus at the mercy of enemies.

As a person, you might not like the idea of social hierarchy. Fine, the worst that can happn to you is that you get passed over for promotion or shown the door first on a downturn, if you don't show deference to your superiors. But in a fantasy world the character, as misfit and friendless, faces assassination, judicial challenge, inquisition or just plain casual murder. So swallow that pride a little, and remember that the guy in charge holds on to power for a reason!
 

Personally, I've ran most, if not all of my D&D campaigns as if they were at the (Pre-)Renaissance stage of technological, political, social and economic development. Of course, there will be differences in developmental levels from place to place (like Revolutionary France and Tzarist Russia), and things can be explained by the origin of the PC in question...

Also, I can see societal systems develop completely different from race to race... Humans should be fairly varied, from one end of the multitude of political spectrums to the other; elves seem to be one of the most egalitarian societies since they live so long and what-not; dwarves would have a strict clan-structure at first, and perhaps develop into Republics quickly (I can see Dwarven nationalism run high); it's my belief that halflings would be about the same as humans, fairly varied; and gnomes? Man, hell if I know, I don't really think about gnomes.
 


*laugh*

I still think that some form of autocracy would be the norm, if only because most people simply do not have the time to devote to properly running a democracy of any time and there's just no way that a multi-polar system (a syndicate structure of some kind) would last before it either solidified into an autocracy or disintegrated into smaller ones.
 

Oh, the Romans had a caste system of sorts, with slaves, plebians, equites & patricians making up the society.

Homeric Greece did also.
True, but what I said was that it didn't have anything resembling the feudal "caste" system, which is true. If it had castes (and they certainly weren't rigid castes in the sense that caste was in India) then they had little resemblance to a feudal society.

I guess my point of contention isn't that PCs respect authority and engage in a little bit of actual role-playing with the setting so much as it is the assumption that D&D defaults to some kind of Medieval society. My games have little to do with Medieval (or any other historical time period, for that matter) society.

There is a saying commonly encountered amongst science fiction authors that unless your story hinges on doing so, you don't want to make dramatic changes to society. By setting societal values as the default of your reader, you can set those values off by placing them in unusual settings, and thus make stories that are more engaging and meaningful to the reader. I believe the same holds true for fantasy. I haven't read many fantasies in years that didn't have societies that mirrored modern Western society much more closely than they did any other society. Otherwise, they simply wouldn't engage the players/readers.

That being said, you don't go up to your Congressman and start trying to make demands of him, either. The situation arcady described has little to do with the setting and more to do with all around bad roleplaying in any setting, IMO.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
That being said, you don't go up to your Congressman and start trying to make demands of him, either. The situation arcady described has little to do with the setting and more to do with all around bad roleplaying in any setting, IMO.


There's certainly truth in that. :D


Let's look at something about fantasy though:

Most of it does include a nobility and commoner distinction.

Almost all published DnD settings and I'd wager most house settings also include this distinction.

In such a society you will have a sense of deferal between commoners and their social betters.

This often completely disapears around PCs. Which I feel is an issue of poor roleplay in ---most--- settings.

The question that does arise is just how much of an impact does the presense of adventurers have on the social system.

If the system still has nobles and commoners then we know almost by definition that it's not having all that much impact. Once adventuring becomes a route out of the common class you have social mobility. It will naturally lead to other forms of mobility springing up around it. This will in turn decay the concept of rights by birth in favor of the concept of rights by merit.

Which will result in the end of nobility as a means to rulership and power. At the least you'll get the UK where the noble's are just a bunch of guys with fancy names. At the most you'll get France or the USA where the nobles end up lacking heads or being de-titled.

But they won't stay around as the ruling class once by right by merit becomes an ingrained concept.

And it's pretty clear in most fantasy and most DnD settings that right by birth is still quite strong. There are kings, queens, princesses, knights, barons, lords, and all the other trappings.

Such a society if it did have adventurers for a long period of time would co-opt them into the framework somehow. It might be a path to knight hood for some. Outlawry for others. Or advancement in the noble ranks for those already born there.

But it certainly wouldn't give license for the complete acceptance of one abandoning proper social protocol.

Quite often in fantasy unless something en-nobles them; the commoner heroes maintain their difference to a nobility that often by the end of the novels they could wipe out with whatever powers they've amassed. It's often just a simple matter of what they feel is proper.

Often the process of their adventures does result in en-nobling them. And then we get stories about them adjusting to the change. (thinking Wheel of Time again) You get people like Perrin who try to deny their new status, people like Rand who adapt to it out of need and are often resented for this, or people who despite their power and influence stick hard to their commoner roots because that's where they are comfortable (Mat is sort of an example of this in some aspects of his personality).

But even if they do by some miracle get advanced in whatever system is used in their world; they will and should still be a part of it in some way.

In most fantasy and DnD settings, while hard core feudalism is not the norm; nobility and right by birth is.
 

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