PCs using their abilities - a favor to the party?

[Kahuna Burger]

Reading a cleric related thread on the 4e subforum and I was struck by several comments along the lines of "my cleric heals those who deserve it" or "healing is for out of combat if you ask nicely".... I find it hard to envision this attitude from any other class - "I disarm traps when I feel like it." "If the others ask nicely I levitate them out of pits." "I cast entangle on enemies when I think the front liners are worthy of my help."

So I'm curious if this is a cleric thing, (possibly relating to the feeling that the player is doing the group a favor by being a cleric, so they should get some in character fawning out of it) or if some people play in groups where the PCs are stuck together but only help each other when convinced?

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Heh, I think that might have been one of my comments you're referring to. That comment probably didn't come out quite as tongue-in-cheek as I intended.

The point I was trying to make was that I like to play Clerics that actually and genuinely believe in their god, and in their gods mythos. And as such, they are not going to waste their divine-given power on some idiot fighter that just says "Yeah, yeah, the gods are great, gimme the healing already" or on some atheist wizard that spends all his time pontificating on the glories of magic until someone sticks a sword in him.

I never said the clerics that I play aren't effective as a party member, it's just that I don't think other members of the party have a right to expect healing automatically if they don't pay at least lip service to the idea that the cleric serves a higher power, and that higher power deserves respect and veneration in return for favours.

 

[Clavis]

Heh, I think that might have been one of my comments you're referring to. That comment probably didn't come out quite as tongue-in-cheek as I intended.

The point I was trying to make was that I like to play Clerics that actually and genuinely believe in their god, and in their gods mythos. And as such, they are not going to waste their divine-given power on some idiot fighter that just says "Yeah, yeah, the gods are great, gimme the healing already" or on some atheist wizard that spends all his time pontificating on the glories of magic until someone sticks a sword in him.

I never said the clerics that I play aren't effective as a party member, it's just that I don't think other members of the party have a right to expect healing automatically if they don't pay at least lip service to the idea that the cleric serves a higher power, and that higher power deserves respect and veneration in return for favours.

As a DM I would regard you as someone who is role-playing a cleric well. Hell, I'd give your PC an XP bonus for acting completely in-character!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Heh, I think that might have been one of my comments you're referring to. That comment probably didn't come out quite as tongue-in-cheek as I intended.

The point I was trying to make was that I like to play Clerics that actually and genuinely believe in their god, and in their gods mythos. And as such, they are not going to waste their divine-given power on some idiot fighter that just says "Yeah, yeah, the gods are great, gimme the healing already" or on some atheist wizard that spends all his time pontificating on the glories of magic until someone sticks a sword in him.

I never said the clerics that I play aren't effective as a party member, it's just that I don't think other members of the party have a right to expect healing automatically if they don't pay at least lip service to the idea that the cleric serves a higher power, and that higher power deserves respect and veneration in return for favours.

But wouldn't it go the other way too? Should a cleric expect the wizard to cast grease on him to help him get out of a grapple automaticly if he doesn't at least pay lip service to the idea that the wizard has devoted his considerable intelligence to learning, and that such dedication and knowledge deserves respect? Should a fighter waste his hit points on some stuck up cleric who says "yeah, yeah, your years of training were super hard, now get in front of that monster so I don't take an AoO when I do this flamestrike."?

The cleric's abilities aren't actually (that much) stronger than the rest of the party's. If the goals of the party aren't compatible with his god related backstory then he shouldn't be in the party, but that goes for everyone else's backstory as well. A PC in a voluntary party, imo, does have the right to expect that the other members of the party will use their abilities without any extra ego stroking or buttering up. In a non voluntary party (which I've been a sad player in before) all bets are off, and no one should expect anything from anyone....

 

[Kahuna Burger]

As a DM I would regard you as someone who is role-playing a cleric well. Hell, I'd give your PC an XP bonus for acting completely in-character!

As a DM I would point him towards my basic rules of characters (rule 1 : you will play your character. Rule 2 : you will come up with a character you can play without ruining other players' fun or forcing them not to play their characters) and suggest a change of attitude or a new PC.

The lesson - know what your DM likes before you play extremes.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Totally agree...

I think some of the feeling is a result of the healing being Expected. If a Cleric uses one of his spells for something other than healing and as a result the party can't get back to full health after an encounter then it is generally seen as a waste of a spell (IMPE).

Usually if I play a cleric, bard, or some other healing character I suggest that the party pool resources to purchase wands of healing. My current character is a Warlock and up until recently he was the healer in the party as we ONLY had wands and no Cleric.

 

[Greylock]

The most fun I've ever had playing with a single character was with my last Cleric.

The least fun I've ever had playing a character was with my last Cleric, because everyone felt compelled to tell me how to play him.

hth

 

[Voadam]

The point I was trying to make was that I like to play Clerics that actually and genuinely believe in their god, and in their gods mythos. And as such, they are not going to waste their divine-given power on some idiot fighter that just says "Yeah, yeah, the gods are great, gimme the healing already" or on some atheist wizard that spends all his time pontificating on the glories of magic until someone sticks a sword in him.

I liked playing a multiclassed ranger wizard who could use his own wand of cure light wounds. The party appreciated it when I rushed in to cure the party cleric when he got torn apart by a crocodile. I don't think they would have appreciated it if I had let him bleed out so I would not waste it on someone not as devoted to my own faith/beliefs.

From an intraparty perspective declaring you will not "waste" your healing on certain party members when they are injured is fairly antagonistic.

I've played in games like that and the roleplaying can be intense, but generally I prefer adventuring with full allies I can rely on.

 

[Morrus]

Reading a cleric related thread on the 4e subforum and I was struck by several comments along the lines of "my cleric heals those who deserve it" or "healing is for out of combat if you ask nicely".... I find it hard to envision this attitude from any other class - "I disarm traps when I feel like it." "If the others ask nicely I levitate them out of pits." "I cast entangle on enemies when I think the front liners are worthy of my help."

So I'm curious if this is a cleric thing, (possibly relating to the feeling that the player is doing the group a favor by being a cleric, so they should get some in character fawning out of it) or if some people play in groups where the PCs are stuck together but only help each other when convinced?

I guess the response to that is "my fighter will hit the big bad monster if you ask nicely." Different classes are good at different things; they all use those abilities (clerc: spells & healing; wizards: spells; rogues: sneaking and critting; fighters: hitting things really well) during an encounter.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Totally agree...

I think some of the feeling is a result of the healing being Expected. If a Cleric uses one of his spells for something other than healing and as a result the party can't get back to full health after an encounter then it is generally seen as a waste of a spell (IMPE).

Usually if I play a cleric, bard, or some other healing character I suggest that the party pool resources to purchase wands of healing. My current character is a Warlock and up until recently he was the healer in the party as we ONLY had wands and no Cleric.

Since the Cleric is (aside to a limited extend the Druid) the only character that can provide reliable healing during a combat, I think healing should be expected. (That doesn't mean that I like this limitation, though). It should be just as much as I expect a Wizard to annihilate or otherwise considerably hinder the parties enemies, and a Fighter to beat things to death.