PCs using their abilities - a favor to the party?

[Hussar]

A lot of times, this situation actually comes from the other players treating the Cleric like a band-aid, with "you don't even worship Pelor" just being a way to make them stop taking the Cleric for granted. Here, watch this PSA:


How to Not Treat the Cleric Like a Band-Aid (and be More Effective Too)

1) Do not expect the Cleric to do between-combat healing from their daily spells past low level - that's what the party buys healing wands for. Not only does the Cleric have other things to do with those spells, but you are reducing the emergency resources that could save you in combat, for the sake of saving some minor cash.

A wand of healing or healing juice is not a solution, just a band aid for the problem. The cleric is still spending actions in combat healing and not doing anything else.

2) Don't call for healing every time you get a scratch. In-combat healing should be reserved for the seriously injured people - people in danger of dying in the next round or two. It's not an effective use of actions or spells to try to keep everyone at full health while they're being beat on ... unless you are a RSoP super-healer or something.

The problem being, even 25% damage can result in PC damage in a single round on the next full attack. When monsters are capable of dropping full hp PC's in a single round, ANY damage can be lethal.

3) If your character is fragile, take some basic precautions. Defensive spells, not rushing in unprepared, staying within a move-action of the Cleric, and knowing when to retreat are vital skills that will save the Cleric having to run past all the monsters and get AoO'd to death trying to save your sorry ass.

Not bad advice. Not really applicable though, since, the cleric here is still relegated to walking band aid.

4) Clerics have other spells besides healing, and those spells are useful. Often a well chosen buff spell, holy smite, or even summoning spell can contribute more to the battle than healing. The key is the right mix, and again, not using spell slots for between-battle healing.

But, if you don't top me up after combat, and I die in the first round of the next combat, you screwed me over. My death is directly your fault. Why didn't you top me up? Because you wanted to save a spell that may or may not be useful later? Sorry, doesn't wash. I'm tanking so you can do your thing, so, you better make sure that I can do my thing.

5) Don't complain if the Cleric decides to go into melee. Clerics like to kick ass too (and can be very good at it), and if you are still alive, you are being healed plenty. Obviously, the effectiveness of this tactic depends on how many tanks you already have.

Quite. And, again, if the cleric is mixing it up in melee, and he's the ONLY character that can save me when that troll starts rending my butt, I'm going to be pretty pissed that he feels doing a d8+2 points of damage with his mace is more important than keeping my barbarian in the fight.

A helpful PSA, I always find, especially if you imagine it being narrated by a surly dwarf.
Oh, and don't actually diss the Cleric's god and then expect healing, that's just asking for trouble.

Agreed. But, again, besides the point.

 

[IceFractal]

A wand of healing or healing juice is not a solution, just a band aid for the problem. The cleric is still spending actions in combat healing and not doing anything else.

I wasn't suggesting you use a wand in-combat; the wand is for between-combat healing.

The problem being, even 25% damage can result in PC damage in a single round on the next full attack. When monsters are capable of dropping full hp PC's in a single round, ANY damage can be lethal.

True - you pretty have to use your best judgement on this, but in many cases it either isn't necessary or isn't worth healing someone after each attack.

But, if you don't top me up after combat, and I die in the first round of the next combat, you screwed me over. My death is directly your fault. Why didn't you top me up? Because you wanted to save a spell that may or may not be useful later? Sorry, doesn't wash. I'm tanking so you can do your thing, so, you better make sure that I can do my thing.

You do get topped up after combat - with a wand. You just don't use the Clerics spells-per-day to do it, unless you're out of wands or done for the day (and confident about night encounters).

Quite. And, again, if the cleric is mixing it up in melee, and he's the ONLY character that can save me when that troll starts rending my butt, I'm going to be pretty pissed that he feels doing a d8+2 points of damage with his mace is more important than keeping my barbarian in the fight.

I think you underestimate the power of melee Clerics. Unbuffed, the Cleric probably shouldn't be on the front line. Fully loaded, they can keep up quite well as a second tank. If the party already has several tanks, the Cleric might do better on buffing them; but in a single-tank party, having someone else in the front line can often keep you safer than a pure healer.

Besides - if the Cleric is up at the front-lines, they're within easy healing range of you - it's a win-win situation.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Originally Posted by Kahuna Burger
The issue is exactly what I stated it as, a player who decides that they are going to try to get the rest of the group to kowtow to their PC, or acts in a non cooperative fashion but still expects their "place" in the party to be uncontested.

Ah, it's the "expects their place in the party to be uncontested" bit that we're differing on.

That would not be my intention. My intention would be that other characters would take my initial RP idea to be a character point and respond themselves in character until we reached a conclusion that both sides were happy with, in game and out of game.

I did not mean to imply that my position would be entrenched, fixed and final.

I like a little party conflict - but only when it's over things regarding 'in-game' discussion rather than something that leads to inter-player conflict. Inter-player conflict is to be avoided at all costs and I would do whatever I could to avoid it.

And if that meant that either a) I played a very healing based cleric or b) I played another character then I'd probably pick b) and check with the DM about taking a cohort.

 

[Desdichado]

The D&D default assumption that a group is supposed to be all about teamwork and rigid reliance on a single role within the group is supremely annoying to me.

Therefore if a cleric won't heal me, I deal with it in character. I neither like nor dislike the idea, but I certainly see it as a valid approach to take to playing your character.

If a DM takes the attitude that "well, you've got a cleric, so your healing needs are met" and the group turns around and say, "yeah, but it's against his character to actually use his healing most of the time, so we need to compensate some other way" and in turn again the DM says, "no, you've got the cleric, that's all you get" then I'm much more inclined to blame the DM for being lousy at running the game than I am to blame the cleric's player for being lousy at playing clerics.

Sorry, overlong sentence there.

 

[Driddle]

Your PCs seem to be acting rather petulantly. Adventuring is a dangerous job. Lives are on the line. I would expect a party member to do his job even if someone yells at him.

Thanks ever so much for that assessment.

Likewise, I believe that anyone who yells at another person because of his own expectations is a rude jerk. And it's probably apparent before the yelling begins.

But we're talking about fantasy PCs and not real "lives on the line," so it's nothing personal, right?

 

[Gort]

If a DM takes the attitude that "well, you've got a cleric, so your healing needs are met" and the group turns around and say, "yeah, but it's against his character to actually use his healing most of the time, so we need to compensate some other way" and in turn again the DM says, "no, you've got the cleric, that's all you get" then I'm much more inclined to blame the DM for being lousy at running the game than I am to blame the cleric's player for being lousy at playing clerics.

I don't understand. It's not the DM's responsibility to hand out healing or deal with intra-party ructions.

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't understand. It's not the DM's responsibility to hand out healing or deal with intra-party ructions.

It may not be his total responsibilty but he his is not divorced from it either.

If a player playing a cleric is more interested in playing a battlepriest than a healing cleric then the DM needs to make it easy to get some other kind of healing via wands, potions or an NPC.

The game is supposed to be fun for all your players and part of the DMs job is to help make it fun. In my campaign the cleric is the frontline fighter he uses his spells to help his fighting, there is a bard in the party. I made it easy by giving the party a wand of cure light as a gift from the church they are helping out. I have also put a lot of healing potions into the treasure they are finding.

 

[Elf Witch]

A wand of healing or healing juice is not a solution, just a band aid for the problem. The cleric is still spending actions in combat healing and not doing anything else.

But not all groups play with the cleric running around healing every round in combat. In all the years I have been playing I have never seen a cleric behave like that or played in a group who expected it. Another solution is to have everyone carry healing potions and then if they need healing during combat they disengage get out of melee and take the potion.


The problem being, even 25% damage can result in PC damage in a single round on the next full attack. When monsters are capable of dropping full hp PC's in a single round, ANY damage can be lethal.

Which is why we have raise dead spells. A PC can be killed in the first round before a cleric can get to him or he can be killed because the cleric is busy healing someone else. Unless a player has made a cleric who wants to run around healing every round it is wrong to expect it. Why should one player not be allowed to have fun in the game.


But, if you don't top me up after combat, and I die in the first round of the next combat, you screwed me over. My death is directly your fault. Why didn't you top me up? Because you wanted to save a spell that may or may not be useful later? Sorry, doesn't wash. I'm tanking so you can do your thing, so, you better make sure that I can do my thing.

It is not screwing anyone over. It is not like the cleric is a mind reader and can see the future. But here is where wands and potions come in handy the cleric can top everyone up and still save slots for later. But you are tanking because that was what you found fun to play but you are denying the other player fun because his character concept of warrior prieat does not fit into you idea of what he should be doing.


Quite. And, again, if the cleric is mixing it up in melee, and he's the ONLY character that can save me when that troll starts rending my butt, I'm going to be pretty pissed that he feels doing a d8+2 points of damage with his mace is more important than keeping my barbarian in the fight.

Again as I said before if your party cleric is not into healing then maybe your barbarian should invest in some healing potions to help himself out during combat. There are so many ways to look at this what if the cleric is busy with another troll and he stops his fight to heal you so the troll attacks the party wizard should the wizard be pissed at the cleric too or at your barbarian for taking the cleric out of the fight?

Do you expect your party cleric to stay out of combat just so they can run in and cast heal?

If the cleric is involved in melee it might not be in a postion to cast a heal on someone else.

 

[Voadam]

Oddly enough, speaking of fulfilling "party roles", I have played in games, some as recently as a year or so ago, where the party Barbarian with great-ax would refuse to go toe to toe with the bad guys, out of a Meta fear on the part of the player because he "only" had 14 HPs [at first level], leaving it up to the more roguish members of the party. Where the party Fighter [Paladin-type] would refuse to help my above mentioned Cleric when a manticore was dragging him off because he didn't agree with his un-Knightly take on life. When the Wizard wouldn't blast the approaching hoards with her best AoE spell because she was running low for the day. Where the party Rogue wouldn't touch traps because he was gunshy.

So why, for the love of all that is unholy, does every one feel compelled to pick on Clerics?

This, as I mentioned above in my previous post, is the SINGLE most un-fun aspect of playing a Cleric.

"I feel it is a bad idea to do so now" is different from "I won't do so for you unless you do as I want"

The OP was complaining about the latter.

The barbarian deciding that a specific combat is too tough is the former.

The fighter not saving someone because they are unknightly is the latter.

The wizard choosing tactically when to use certain spells is the former.

The rogue being scared of Traps is the former.

I would expect as much outrage about the fighter not helping a PC "for character reasons" as about a cleric not healing "for character reasons." I just don't expect it to be as common an occurrence.

A cleric deciding not to use healing spells so they can either use them later or for other spell purposes is different from a cleric not healing someone because they do not offer enough worship to the cleric's god. These are two distinct issues that should not be conflated.

 

[Elf Witch]

A wand of healing or healing juice is not a solution, just a band aid for the problem. The cleric is still spending actions in combat healing and not doing anything else.



The problem being, even 25% damage can result in PC damage in a single round on the next full attack. When monsters are capable of dropping full hp PC's in a single round, ANY damage can be lethal.



Not bad advice. Not really applicable though, since, the cleric here is still relegated to walking band aid.



But, if you don't top me up after combat, and I die in the first round of the next combat, you screwed me over. My death is directly your fault. Why didn't you top me up? Because you wanted to save a spell that may or may not be useful later? Sorry, doesn't wash. I'm tanking so you can do your thing, so, you better make sure that I can do my thing.



Quite. And, again, if the cleric is mixing it up in melee, and he's the ONLY character that can save me when that troll starts rending my butt, I'm going to be pretty pissed that he feels doing a d8+2 points of damage with his mace is more important than keeping my barbarian in the fight.



Agreed. But, again, besides the point.

But not all groups play with the cleric running around healing every round in combat. In all the years I have been playing I have never seen a cleric behave like that or played in a group who expected it. Another solution is to have everyone carry healing potions and then if they need healing during combat they disengage get out of melee and take the potion


This is why we have raise dead spells. A PC can be killed in the first round before a cleric can get to him or he can be killed because the cleric is busy healing someone else. Unless a player has made a cleric who wants to run around healing every round it is wrong to expect it. Why should one player not be allowed to have fun in the game?

It is not screwing anyone over. It is not like the cleric is a mind reader and can see the future. But here is where wands and potions come in handy the cleric can top everyone up and still save slots for later. But you are tanking because that was what you found fun to play but you are denying the other player fun because his character concept of warrior priest does not fit into you idea of what he should be doing.

Again as I said before if your party cleric is not into healing then maybe your barbarian should invest in some healing potions to help himself out during combat. There are so many ways to look at this what if the cleric is busy with another troll and he stops his fight to heal you so the troll attacks the party wizard should the wizard be pissed at the cleric too or at your barbarian for taking the cleric out of the fight?

Do you expect your party cleric to stay out of combat just so they can run in and cast heal?

If the cleric is involved in melee it might not be in a postion to cast a heal on someone else.