PCs with too many scrolls?

[Renfield]

I have to say I don't see the problem. Then again I've been gaming with players who've found rather interesting and useful tactics. One thing I firmly believe in a s a GM is never punish the players for tactical thinking. Find a way around it or to use it to your advantage but do not punish them for using something useful, it only builds resentment and I think that it's also the sign of a weak GM, one who can't hack it with the big boys as his players. That and too many scrolls isn't really that much of an issue when you think of it.

If they have a hell of a lot of scrolls... make them use them. They want to extend their adventuring day, that's a good thing, make them burn through those puppies so they can use their spells in the final battle like every player who's rolled up a wizard has wanted to do. This is particularly easy in player killer campaigns like Age of Worms and the like. Also bear in mind that down time is it's own limiting factor. Players can only make one scroll a day. This doesn't mean you should limit any and all down time but campaigns are their own limit. PC's just got out of a dungeon with a dire secret that needs to be reported to the city right away where upon they'll get hit with another adventure? Then they, as good role players, shouldn't decide to stick around for ten days making scrolls.

If you work on it long enough the issue of too many scrolls isn't really that much of an issue.

 

[taliesin15]

renfield writes:

I have to say I don't see the problem. Then again I've been gaming with players who've found rather interesting and useful tactics. One thing I firmly believe in a s a GM is never punish the players for tactical thinking.

part of the problem I have with it is that it slows down the game...even the player that was most organized, with a huge spread sheet with all her spells on scrolls would take forever in combat situations figuring out which spells to use; the other spellcasters were even less organized. This often led to frustration with the combat-tanks who were up front smashing and bashing. A problem with the flow of the game created by the players.

Also, I had a creeping feeling that it a problem with real world versimillitude. Would the highly intelligent mage with high dexterity necessarily always be able to fish out among the hundred or so scrolls the right one as quick as a free action? If a character has less than 10 scrolls, I don't see a problem. Seems to me an increasing DC of one point for every 5-10 extra scrolls you have would be in order.

But also, there's the idea I had about the effects that a character having such a large number of magic items would have. Even if one doesn't run a Ley Line oriented magical campaign, a character with a 100 scrolls (and other magic items besides) would strongly radiate magic. If she or he has a few buddies with 100scrolls and other magic items, then you're talking about quite a magic power nexus there.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Not sure what the problem is? Creating scrolls cost resources including XP and if the players are willing and have the time, let them create them.
On the other hand if you want a restricted magic campaing, then you should talk with your players and work out what magic levels and the rule changes to enforce that is.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is completely wrong. The save DC of his grease scroll would be 11, no matter what the creator's Intelligence modifier is.

No, it's not completely wrong. At the very least, save DC is not attached to cost all. As for the DC of a grease scroll, how do you think it's determined? It is not DC 11, it is DC of 10 +level +casting stat mod, which just happens to be a total of 11. Because DC doesn't factor into the price, setting it is arbitrary, so WotC used the minimum required. It's very reasonable. Until the players make their own scrolls. Then it becomes patently ridiculous that the wizard can't use his full int score for the item. Not even like caster level, where he can choose to use more than the minimum for a cost, but he doesn't even have the option, he has to cut back.

Also, unless the creator specifically specifies otherwise (and pays more) the caster level of a scroll is the minimum required to cast the spell. The spell will have all of its level-dependent effects set by this - range, area, damage and so on. That means a standard magic missile scroll creates only one missile, a standard fireball scroll creates a 5-dice fireball, a standard mage armor spell only lasts for one hour and so on. This caster level also is what counts for overcoming spell resistance with the spell from the scroll.

Yes, I already knew all of this. Perhaps that's why I originally talked about what does and doesn't affect the cost of a scroll. *eyeroll*

Staffs are the only exception to this rule.

No, staves work differently. A staff lets the user use his casting stat, which is entirely different than letting the creator use his casting stat. Jack the Wizard has int 24 and makes a staff of disintigrate, which Jim the Rogue with int 16 then uses via UMD. The DC of the spell will be 19, not the full 23 Jack could have given it, if you assume the given DCs are set in stone, and not just a function of assuming meeting the bare minimum.

 

[sckeener]

Are there any NPCs in the party? You could always have them do this scene from Xena:

Gabrielle: YOU USED MY SCROLL??
Xena: I had to improvise. There were no good leaves! I used a piece that hardly had any writing on it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Are there any NPCs in the party? You could always have them do this scene from Xena:

Gabrielle: YOU USED MY SCROLL??
Xena: I had to improvise. There were no good leaves! I used a piece that hardly had any writing on it.

Ha! I remember that! And since we're making it a D&D dialog, the best followup line to that exchange would be:

Gabrielle: ...You mean you took the power word scroll?!

 

[Quartz]

In one of the last campaigns I ran, the mid-level spellcasters spent so much of their cash and time making endless scrolls, to the point where it seemed pretty pointless for them to memorize spells.

This is how spellcasters - particularly wizards - are supposed to be played. A mid-level spellcaster should be a walking arsenal of scrolls, potions, and (for wizards) wands. Otherwise you get into the 15-minute day. Note how they've embraced this in 4E with Rituals. If you think they're overdoing it, impose time constraints on the next adventure.

But I wonder, are you working XP correctly? With all the XP spent on item creation, your spellcasters should be a level or two behind the non-spellcasters.

 

[amethal]

What do the non casters do when the wizard is busy writing scrolls?

One way to discourge excessive writing is to have the rest of the party earning money (and maybe XP) while the wizard is spending it.

Also, if the player is not being organised, then tell him that the character isn't being organised either.

Can't find the scroll you need on your character sheet within a reasonable time? Then you spend your entire turn fumbling around in your bag of holding. Hopefully this will force the players to organise their character sheets better and stop it holding up play.

However, I have no problem with characters having large amounts of utility spells on scrolls. That is the whole point of scrolls. If the party is missing a spell they need, the alternative is to come back tomorrow, which is usually not much fun.

 

[Renfield]

renfield writes:

part of the problem I have with it is that it slows down the game...even the player that was most organized, with a huge spread sheet with all her spells on scrolls would take forever in combat situations figuring out which spells to use; the other spellcasters were even less organized. This often led to frustration with the combat-tanks who were up front smashing and bashing. A problem with the flow of the game created by the players.

Also, I had a creeping feeling that it a problem with real world versimillitude. Would the highly intelligent mage with high dexterity necessarily always be able to fish out among the hundred or so scrolls the right one as quick as a free action? If a character has less than 10 scrolls, I don't see a problem. Seems to me an increasing DC of one point for every 5-10 extra scrolls you have would be in order.

But also, there's the idea I had about the effects that a character having such a large number of magic items would have. Even if one doesn't run a Ley Line oriented magical campaign, a character with a 100 scrolls (and other magic items besides) would strongly radiate magic. If she or he has a few buddies with 100scrolls and other magic items, then you're talking about quite a magic power nexus there.

Hmmm, alright, lets see how this can be fixed.
It sounds like your problem isn't so much the scrolls themselves as it is the players and how they handle it. Seeing as you are the GM there are a few things you can require of them.
1. Require them to be organized if they're going to use their scrolls in combat.
* They should let you know where the scrolls are on their person. Perhaps even have a few designated locations for select combat scrolls.
* They should also have them organized on paper. One of my groups spellcasters uses his laptop considerably and has them organized per his own system. I would recomend they at least have a section for combat scrolls specifically.
2. Have them inform you where these scrolls are placed.
* This will determine what can and can't be acquired during combat as well as how quickly. Should they have them all crammed in the bottom of their backpack then we're talking rounds for searching and sifting as well as possible AoO's. If they have a series of scroll cases neatly organized and hanging from their belt then great. That's something.
* Take note of magic storage items and their application. If they're using something like a Hewards Handy Haversack it's important to note that what you're looking for is right on top. Note gloves of storing and so on.
3. If they refuse these reasonable requests make them pay for it. Not by limiting what they can and can't do with their characters though.
* Use common tactics to speed up combat. 30 seconds to a minute on a stopwatch should be fine. If they can't find what they need in that time move on to the next action. That'll have them organizing their nice and quick like. Thankfully I've never really had to use this tactic myself. A ten second countdown will really get them moving too.
* Use the location lists to determine what they can and can't reasonably acquire during a six second combat round. Then again there are so many flaws inherent in that system as it is but I won't go into that.

I think I've covered the bases, my players (one cloistered cleric and two wizards) have taken advantage of their scroll making capabilities though they don't use them for combat. They've been making them for those utility spells that are handy but you're never quite certain you should spend the spell slots on them. Probably the most sound application of prodigious scroll use I've ever seen. Anyway, I hope my advice has helped, if not, well, I'm sure you'll find a way to handle it regardless, you have a wealth of resources on these very boards even. Just remember, it's a game and should be fun, screwing over your players makes games not fun for them, try compromise or working around the problem rather than cutting through it and save such limitations as a last resort, not some quick fix. At least that's my two bits.

 

[fuindordm]

Since the treasure tables never give a scroll with more than 6 spells, I assume that's the maximum number that can be put on a scroll. Furthermore, I limit PCs to 3 spells per scroll until 7th level, then 4 spells per scroll until 14th level.

That helps a lot, because in a single day they can't create a scroll with 40 1st-level spells.