PDF Vs. Print [Slight Rant]

[Tsyr]

YMMV, but most people use their computer to one degree or another when prepping. PDFs can be one more tool when you are prepping.

I would disagree with this. Of the DMs I know, myself included, none of us use computers (at least in any signifigant fashion... I use a dice-roller program on occasion, because I have bad luck keeping track of my dice bag) as prep aids.

 

[EricNoah]

I'll see if I can remember to zip it up and post it later on. Be warned -- it uses the older, probably out-of-date SRD from the Open Gaming Foundation.

 

[Ravellion]

Wow. So, you actually want him to prove something that's really based on a completely subjective opinion?

Subjective? Hardly. Open a PDF of 64 pages. Come on. Now, you know there is something you want on eithe page 7,8 or 9. Get there. Good luck.

...

Took you quite a it longer than HTML now doesn't it?

Next step, reading. Scrolling down the first column (chug...chug...chug). Going to the top of the page again (Big chug). Reading down again (chug...chug...chug). Oh yes, what a good format!

Am I overstating anything here? no. The funny thing is, it sounds like I am. I have on occasion selcted all the text of a PDF and pasted it in some other program. Although that often goes completely wrong because of the columns.

OOPS, skipped Michael Morris' post.

Well, if it's supposed to be used for printing, then it's more expensive then print, which is better quality. Next!

I do not have experience publishing anything other than simple webpages. I just know that I, as a user, use PDF grudgingly because free products are available in that format. I would not want to pay for it if it turns out to be more expensive, more of a hassle, less enduring, lower quality (especially important for maps etc). Propagating this format will not be successful till Colour Laserprinters are feasible and cheap for home use.

Rav

 

[astralpwka]

I love pdfs, and I print most of those I buy. I picked up a cheap spiral binder used at an auction, and I set Acrobat to print in black and white (except for the cover). I manage to keep most of my printed off pdf's to under $5 for materials. I'm lucky enough to have access to a laser printer that does front and back and prints rapidly.

Cost breakdown for printing pdfs (with the resources I've found)...

.015 per sheet of paper. That's .75 total for a 100 page front and back printed book (50 sheets of paper)...

.10 per cardstock. .20 total for the front and back cover.

.80 for the comb for it to be comb bound.

.075 for the color ink on the cover (based on cost of ink per average ink cube), but can also be printed in lower quality or in b&w to negate any color cost.

Free black ink...

The cost to print the 100 page pdf is... $1.83.

= I love pdfs.

 

[The Sigil]

Subjective? Hardly. Open a PDF of 64 pages. Come on. Now, you know there is something you want on eithe page 7,8 or 9. Get there. Good luck.

That's just not knowing how to use the format. I assume you also are allowing the HTML file to be structured such that the thing you want to find is 7-9 "pages" (or roughly 300 rows) down the screen.

How do you get there in HTML? Two ways... scroll with the mouse... scroll, scroll, scroll - or hit the "spacebar" (in most browsers) to advance a page and do so 7-9 times.

How do you get there in PDF? Three ways... scroll with the mouse... scroll, scroll, scroll - or hit the "right arrow" key to advance a page and do so 7-9 times. OR just go to the little box near the bottom of the PDF where it says "Page 1 of 64" and select the number "1" and instead type "<page>" where <page> is the page number you want (e.g., "7").

For sake of argument, let's assume it's on page 8.

If you use the mouse to scroll, HTML is usually slightly faster.

If you use the keyboard, both are equally quick...
HTML -> Hit "space" 8 times
PDF -> Hit "right arrow" 8 times.

But, if you just select the number and type the page number in the PDF file, it takes one mouse click, one keypress (the page number) and "Enter"

Once you learn how to work Acrobat Reader, PDFs are at least as fast (keystrokes) and usually faster (directly entering the page number). I don't think you can have much more empirical proof than what I just gave you - it doesn't take you longer to hit one key (the right arrow) 8 times than another key 8 times (spacebar).

Took you quite a it longer than HTML now doesn't it?

If I used scrollbars, yes.
If I used keypad, took the same.
If I directly entered the page number, PDF was faster (note that this is much more pronounced when you shoot for page 40 or 50).

Next step, reading. Scrolling down the first column (chug...chug...chug).

And this differs from HTML how?

Going to the top of the page again (Big chug).

"Left arrow" then "right arrow." Done in about 1/2 second at most (and with my typing speed it takes around 1/10th of a sceond). No chugging involved. A minor inconvenience? Perhaps... but keeps me from having to read long long long lines and having my comprehension drop (as HTML is wont to do).

Reading down again (chug...chug...chug). Oh yes, what a good format!

Again, this differs from HTML how? You still have to scroll down in HTML.

Am I overstating anything here? no.

Yes. The only time a PDF "chugs" is when there is a mess of graphics. Most PDF publishers are smart/polite enough now to have a graphicless "print" version which flips along as fast as HTML.

The funny thing is, it sounds like I am. I have on occasion selcted all the text of a PDF and pasted it in some other program. Although that often goes completely wrong because of the columns.

And when pasting text from HTML, you've never encountered formatting problems? I want your word processor!

Columnated text is something of a problem in Acrobat Reader. That is one problem you have not overstated at all. There is, however, a fairly easy workaround to that, too... it's a plugin (but only for Acrobat 4 AFAIK) called "Access" that is meant for those with impaired vision. It changes the "pretty" formatted version of a PDF into a simple text file on screen, automatically formatting the columns correctly, and making for easy copy-pasting.

Thus far, most of your complaints do not reveal flaws inherent in PDFs, they just reveal your unfamiliarity with the Acrobat software. I encourage you to try giving a PDF a read again with some of the tips I mentioned for "moving around" the document. A free adventure of mine is at my website. An HTML version of the same can be found here at Enworld. Same product, different formats, so I think it's a good "acid test" for comparison. You tell me which one you like better and which one you can move around in more easily, given the tips I mentioned above. Personally, I think the PDF version looks nicer and is easier to navigate.

Well, if it's supposed to be used for printing, then it's more expensive then print, which is better quality. Next!

I think that depends on the Publisher's price and where you go to get it printed. The Book of Eldritch Might II is a good example. The print version can be had for $9.95 at frpgames.com (the cheapest place I know of) while the PDF version (an identical product if printed) will run you $7 at RPGNow.com. If I go to my local copy shop and have them do double-sided printing on 11x17 sheets of paper, that will require 16 sheets at about $0.15 per sheet (YMMV). The cover, color-laser-printed on one side (the "outside"), runs another $2.25 on cardstock (again, YMMV). Stapling this together for a saddle-stitched book? Well, I get it free at my local copier, but it's probably less than a quarter elsewhere. Net price: 16*$0.15 ($2.40) plus $2.25 plus $7 for the PDF... a cost of $11.65. Compared to $9.95 plus shipping from frpgames (and if I go to my FLGS, the MSRP is $12.95), I think the pricing is in fact comparable... and with the PDF version, I also have something from which I can easily copy/paste on my computer. Because of this, I have a hard time buying into the "PDFs are way too expensive" argument.

I do not have experience publishing anything other than simple webpages. I just know that I, as a user, use PDF grudgingly because free products are available in that format. I would not want to pay for it if it turns out to be more expensive, more of a hassle, less enduring, lower quality (especially important for maps etc). Propagating this format will not be successful till Colour Laserprinters are feasible and cheap for home use.

Most PDFs that I am familiar with have "nifty" color art on the "covers" but the majority of the interior art is black and white, meaning that you really don't need a color printer (printing one or two pages in color at the local copy shop isn't bad). But I think propogation of cheap color laser printers will help some. I really think that b&w laser printers handle the bulk of PDF printwork.

Durability may be a concern for larger PDFs, but for smaller ones, which can be saddle-stitched (and in most cases, the print version is saddle-stitched), but there is also the "ease of replacement" argument (which you didn't touch on). What happens when someone spills their Mountain Dew on my book at the gaming table? If I have the PDF version, I go to the copy shop and get another one done ($4.65). If I only have the print version, I have to go plunk down another $9.95 plus shipping. That's a factor of two!

IOW, IMO (and IMO only - this is not empirical fact of course) the quality of a printed PDF is comparable to the quality of a Print Version (unless the PDF relies heavily on color artwork), the price is comparable (again, unless the PDF relies heavily on color artwork), but the "recurring cost" if I want to/need to "buy again" is much less for the PDF - a sort of "insurance policy" on your book, if you will.

Hopefully, the above give you a few things to consider. You don't have to change your opinion, but please at least make an effort to understand mine. I have tried as best I can to provide specific counterexamples to your argument (the best method for helping others see your point of view, IMO), rather than employing any sweeping generalizations... because with specific examples you can go "check my work" for yourself and see if I have made any mistakes.

This is interesting to hear, however, and I am listening. Keep up the discussion!

--The Sigil

 

[Ravellion]

Perhaps I've just got a crap machine (No, scrap that, I do have a crap machine), but tapping the right arrow 8 times would take LONG. Even with hardly any graphics, but graphics make it truly horrible.

Oh well, you might be right. I just have the feeling I'm playing an arcade gaem with too many sprites on the screen...

Rav

 

[Bagpuss]

Subjective? Hardly. Open a PDF of 64 pages. Come on. Now, you know there is something you want on eithe page 7,8 or 9. Get there. Good luck.

Open PDF, type 7 in the goto area in the bottom corner, page down, two pages. Easy

Plus a PDF has Bookmarks and Thumbnails that make it much easier to search.

Large HTML document scroll down, scroll down, scroll down, scroll down...

Took you quite a it longer than HTML now doesn't it?

Erm no HTML takes significantly longer.

 

[Michael Morris]

I would also point out that most PDF documents have a document map you can bring up to jump between headers quickly and easily. If the designers of the file didn't include such a map its their fault, not a fault inherent in the format.

Also, if Adobe, Macromedia and Microsoft have anything in common it's this: memory management - or the lack thereof. I swear these three make some of the most bloated processor intensive programs imaginaable. A slow machine is *not* idea with any program written by any of these guys.

 

[The Sigil]

Also, if Adobe, Macromedia and Microsoft have anything in common it's this: memory management - or the lack thereof. I swear these three make some of the most bloated processor intensive programs imaginaable. A slow machine is *not* idea with any program written by any of these guys.

If you're looking for an argument on THAT point, my good fellow, you will find none here! I long for the days of applications that fit on a single disk. But with Processor power and Memory size increasing as they are, there just seems to be no need for these folks to be "careful" any more.

--The Sigil

 

[Michael Morris]

OOPS, skipped Michael Morris' post.

Well, if it's supposed to be used for printing, then it's more expensive then print, which is better quality. Next!

PDF was developed originally to get files from graphic development houses to the printer without any changes. It's major competitor in this field is Quark Express format. Selling PDF's is a relatively new concept. And don't tell me that keeping everything the way you intended isn't crucial when you are sending it to the printer to have thousands of copies made for sell.