People don't optimize

[Celebrim]

There seems to be an assumption that character flaws are a requisite to make a character interesting.

Yeah, I hate that. And the people who advance that meme typically also mean by character flaws fairly crippling and extreme things. It's all part of the whole, 'darker and edgier' thinking that basically says that before a character is 'well-rounded', 'interesting', 'believable', or any such thing, the character has to be a grade A jerk or an emotional or moral cripple. As long as the character then beats people up good, and is charming or sexy, then its 'Ok'.

The real problem with that 'things are more interesting only if they are shades of fairly dark gray' thinking, is that pretty quickly all of those characters start to seem pretty much the same and typically one of its motivations is a lack of creativity. Giving the character some big salient flaw is often actually just a cop out compared to more finely nuanced and interesting characterizations. What you end up having is flaws substituting for an actual personality.

“A lot of people hate heroes. I was criticized for portraying people who are brave, honest, loving, intelligent. That was called weak and sentimental. People who dismiss all real emotion as sentimentality are cowards. They’re afraid to commit themselves, and so they remain ‘cool’ for the rest of their lives, until they’re dead—then they’re really cool.” ― Mark Helprin

I think it's ok to have heroic characters. The notion of the 'anti-hero' has been dragged through the dirt, to the point that people no longer seem to see a difference between something like Phillip Marlowe - who despite the superficial exterior of a thug has more morally in common with superman than a 90's comic book hero - and a likeable villain.

 

[Celebrim]

Are they optimized, or just coincidentally well suited for the task?

The people who compete in the Olympics are typically both.

Additionally, being a fireman and saving a kid from a burning building is one type of heroism. It's his job. he's trained for it and he has some basic equipment to help him do the job.

Cory Booker, mayor of some city and former football player, while posessing some guts and muscle, lacked the extras a fireman had, yet he still ran into a burning building to save somebody.

Drilling down further, there's countless tales of really normal people rushing into a building to save others. The lacked training, equipment and, tough-guy experience. Yet they too are recognized as heroes.

so, I'm not sure optimization counts as a qualifying trait of a hero.

That depends on which of the several dictionary definitions of 'hero' you are using. While I admire your commitment to real world heroism, there is little market in the RPG world for games where you play an ordinary person in extraordinary times or circumstances. One of the things that marks virtually all successful RPGs is that you play an extraordinary individual. There are very few games of GURPS played at the 25 pt. character build, much less that remain there. There are very few games of D20 that use 15 point buy, and restrict you to NPC classes and cap at E3. If you want to play those games, then great, but that's hardly typical.

While it is important to recognize virtue as the truest expression of heroism, the Heroic ideal is always optimized.

 

[Janx]

Yeah, I hate that. And the people who advance that meme typically also mean by character flaws fairly crippling and extreme things. It's all part of the whole, 'darker and edgier' thinking that basically says that before a character is 'well-rounded', 'interesting', 'believable', or any such thing, the character has to be a grade A jerk or an emotional or moral cripple. As long as the character then beats people up good, and is charming or sexy, then its 'Ok'.

I can agree with that. I think folks go overboard on the "must have flaws" concept.

Given that lots of people seem to relate their PC and his exploits to fiction, in fiction, most protagonists are not suffering from debilitating character flaws.

They have flaws. And those flaws usually create socially dramatic situations and eventual impact to the heroe's efforts.

But as a basic rule, most protagonists don't suffer from flaws that constantly impeded their ability to be heroic, quip smart alec lines, or convince their allies to participate in one last stand against the BBEG.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But as a basic rule, most protagonists don't suffer from flaws that constantly impeded their ability to be heroic, quip smart alec lines, or convince their allies to participate in one last stand against the BBEG.

...but a significant number do:

• Elric was a weak albino, dependent upon drugs & Stormbringer to muster the energy to perform any kind of strenuous activity, and his allies have a habit of getting killed.
• Tony Stark is an alcoholic.
• Bruce Banner had multiple personality disorders.
• Dexter is a serial killer.
• Benjamin January was a black man in pre-Civil War USA.
• Samwise, Frodo & the rest are hobbits, a race looked down upon (literally & figuratively) by nearly every other race in Middle Earth.
• Etrigan and The Demon are both of hellish origins.
• Deadman is....dead.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

... Captain Kirk can be foiled by anyone in a skirt.

 

[Argyle King]

You also have to consider that 'real life' doesn't revolve around one specific activity or one specific way of solving problems so heavily. Because the game rules of real life allow for a wider variety of skills to be brought to a situation, that tends to make optimizing a little more difficult, imo. When a person has a particular niche such as Olympic sprinter, soldier, and etc, they do tend to optimize in that particular area. However, on a more general level, life skills are life skills, and you'd be surprised how much (or how little in some cases) things can overlap. For example, I help run a copy and print shop; I was surprised to find that my knowledge of how to take apart certain weapons made some of the steps involved with taking apart a printer make more sense.

There also are not levels or assumptions of wealth by level; nor is there something like CR or an XP budget. As such, I can handle the encounters in my life using items and skills which may be completely different than the items and skills you have to tackle your encounters. In the game of real life, my way and/or your way is not supported more or encouraged more by the mechanics. There certainly are ways to optimize your ability to handle certain activities, but a wider range of possible challenges makes putting so many of your eggs into one basket less desirable than it is inside of some tabletop games.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ed, in Deliverance, could not kill...until he had no choice.

Peter Martin in Westworld was a scrawny introvert.

 

[Janx]

...but a significant number do:

• Elric was a weak albino, dependent upon drugs & Stormbringer to muster the energy to perform any kind of strenuous activity, and his allies have a habit of getting killed.
• Tony Stark is an alcoholic.
• Bruce Banner had multiple personality disorders.
• Dexter is a serial killer.
• Benjamin January was a black man in pre-Civil War USA.
• Samwise, Frodo & the rest are hobbits, a race looked down upon (literally & figuratively) by nearly every other race in Middle Earth.
• Etrigan and The Demon are both of hellish origins.
• Deadman is....dead.

Tony Stark being an alcoholic didn't stop him from inventing the Iron Man suit, and doing his hero thing in just about every issue.

In most cases, the protagonist's flaw is something that builds up to interfering with their main Schtick, but the point is for the protagonist to overcome it or work around it.

So, I'm sure there were some issues where Tony couldn't be all heroic because he was drunk. But most of the comic book line is chock full of him being a hero before and after his alcoholism problem grew great enough to thwart him.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I dont know howwe got to hero antihero, but I am sick of the "bad cop" cleaning the street, or the serial killer we root for. I also am getting sick of "such a huge disability overlooked".

I dont want a group of rorchac or comedian, i also dont need adrean monk or god forbid the guy from perception.

I just hate seeing card board cut out characters that all have the same feat, spell, power... or even worse 12 out of 15 characters in 3 games have supior/exotic weapons

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Tony Stark being an alcoholic didn't stop him from inventing the Iron Man suit, and doing his hero thing in just about every issue.

(forgot to mention his heart issue)

Stark wasn't an alkie when he built the first suit, nor the 2nd or 3rd iteration of it, but rather, became one over time. At one point, it cost him Stark, International, and nearly bankrupted him. This had an adverse affect on his ability to keep the suit in good repair. He was given an ultimatum to get help with his drinking or he'd get kicked out of The Avengers.

Had he not sobered up, he'd have lost it all. If there were to be an Iron Man character after he ended up a broken wino, it would have been someone else (probably James Rhodes). And since Rhodes didn't have the genius of Stark, the armor's development would have stagnated unless they found someone else to help.

And we know that there are very few inventors of Stark's class in the Marvel Universe, and only a few of those work with power armor*...and one of THOSE is Victor von Doom.








* many of the power armor designs in the Marvel Universe were revealed to be based on his inventions.