Percentile Systems? Just Say No!

By this reasoning, a dGoogol system is every bit as good as a d10 system. Do you think that the requirement that one carry, count out, roll, and then write out the results for one hundred d10's makes this dGoogol system merely subjectively bad? And, if so, can you find us one single person who would actually find such a system not only fun but preferable to other systems?

Does make me wonder about the "buckets of dice systems" where you roll several dice and compare them all with a target number or use some other method to get a result. Shadowrun, original Storyteller System, HERO system, Wordplay, Cortex (to some degree). Their are some systems where you can be rolling up to 40 dice at times, yet people still seem to enjoy them.

Is d% at least better than these? Or because they use some other mechanic that isn't just the "false precision" d% give they get a pass?
 
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I've only used percentile dice in Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu and I thought it worked well. Characters were easy to generate and the skill system was incredibly easy to grasp, even by new players. I suppose you could have the same system and use a d20 instead of a d100 but that seems like six one way, a half-dozen the other to me.
 

How would you do experience progression if you switched CoC to d20? In the d% system it only goes up by 1d6 at a time, so usually less than 5, so smaller than you can measure on a d20.
 

How would you do experience progression if you switched CoC to d20? In the d% system it only goes up by 1d6 at a time, so usually less than 5, so smaller than you can measure on a d20.

Good point. I was thinking of it from a character creation standpoint and hadn't considered experience progression. Which makes sense because the longest that one of my CoC characters lasted was two sessions! :)
 

By this reasoning, a dGoogol system is every bit as good as a d10 system. Do you think that the requirement that one carry, count out, roll, and then write out the results for one hundred d10's makes this dGoogol system merely subjectively bad? And, if so, can you find us one single person who would actually find such a system not only fun but preferable to other systems?


I'm interested in an RPG system that uses bananas for task resolution. Or puppies.


Look, the point I'm making is that I disagree with your original argument, "that any percentile rpg ever designed would be better once converted to d20, d10, 2d6, or some other system using smaller numbers." The assumption in your argument is that smaller numbers are somehow objectively better than larger numbers. Better or worse in this context are subjective qualities that cannot be measured objectively.


The d% system in RuneQuest isn't concerned with the false precision of shooting crossbows in the rain. A +/-1% difference in crossbow skill in this case isn't really about granular precision in task resolution. It is an artefact of how RuneQuest resolves character advancement. Yes, one could adjust skills so that they use a d20 and increase by 1 each advance. Is this mathematically easier? Possibly. Would it fundamentally change the feel of the game? Almost certainly. Is this a better system? No. Why? Because it's no longer RuneQuest, it's a new d20RuneQuest system.

If I want to play RuneQuest then I want to play RuneQuest.

Other people may hate RuneQuest and much prefer d20, d20RuneQuest or even dBananas and that's fine. People are more than welcome to their opinion of what is a good game for them. I enjoy those games too. I especially enjoy dBananas, it evokes a very definite atmosphere at the table. I don't much like dPuppies. I find the system unwieldy and it brings me out in a rash.


In a game with as few as ten skills which max out as low as 10, it would take a hundred sessions to max out all of those skills.


That assumes those 10 skills start out at 0.


Further given a mechanic something like RuneQuest uses, one could be given only a skill roll to increase a skill, which would then double the amount of sessions required to max out these skills, all without the need to resort to XP.
When you consider that most rpgs have much, much larger skillsets, this cannot be a significant problem even for a system that restricted itself to d10's, let alone d20. Knowing this, it should be easy to understand why, in my experience with the 2d6 games I always play with, none of us have never come close to maxing anything out.


None of that makes any of those systems objectively better or worse than the way RQ does it.


Yes, I understand. Do you also think that all designs for bridges are equally good.


Define good in this context. The utility of a bridge is its capacity to provide passage across an obstacle. The utility of a role-playing game is to provide entertainment or amusement for its players. I can point you in the direction of planning standards and engineering principles that can be used to measure the utility of a bridge. Show me the ISO standard for fun.
 

The minimum necessary to reach the desired mechanical results and establish the intended feel.
Well, I would say that for some games, the minimum necessary granularity would work best with a d4 and have no numbers greater than five. Your game reminds me something of a game by Paul Elliot called Totem where rocks were pulled from a bag in a way that gave probabilities of 1:3, 1:2, and 2:3 - I don't remember the mechanics well, but there may not have been numbers. I do think these kinds of games are well designed, but, if you allow only the minimum necessary granularity, then you'll turn off some gamers. (I just wouldn't be one of them.)


*Large dice pools* moves the game outside of the theater of the mind (temporarily) and onto the table more than a system where you are only dealing with a die or two does.
My sense of games is that this is where most people's mental playing space actually is: the table. My attitude has always been simulationist, in the sense that I stop believing in the numbers and dice and sheets unless they plausibly reflect something that is happening in the otherworld, rather than being the thing that is happening. It's taken me a while to realize that this is unusual.

For instance, I don't know whether most people stop to consider whether it really matters if they have a 9 or 10 in a stat. Isn't what matters whether you succeeded or failed at a task, and by how much? This is what actually happens in the game world; as I see things all stat are are nothing more than measurement or representations, which can only be so accurate. True, you might want to have a feel for your chances going in to a task, so you might care whether your stat is 9 or 4. But this is about where your adventurers would be - they could have only vague clues about their abilities and the strength of the problem going in. Definitely when I present myself to a job interview or try to make it to a store before closing, a don't gauge my chance for success at granularity better than fifths. And none of my attributes are measured to any more accuracy than a standard deviation - if one rose or fell by less than that (say, 2 points in D&D reckoning) during the day, I would have no way of noticing. I really don't mind a certain amount of fake precision, so if people like to measure out their stats to the nearest 5%, fine with me. But when the numbers get quite large they simply become tedious to manipulate.


I personally find using the d20 system for anything other than D&D unsatisfying in and of itself, because it turns what should be it's own game into an extensive set of house rules in my gut emotional perception. So that bias on my part means that no matter how good the system, if it's not D&D but we're using D&D dice systems/rules for it, I'm already dissatisfied.
OK, but bear in mind that there are lots of other systems that used twenty siders. For instance, I mentioned Dragon Warriors earlier. Every character has ATTACK (13 for a Knight) and DEFENCE (7 for a Knight). When you attack, roll d20 and subtract the roll from your ATTACK to find the DEFENCE score you hit. Lower rolls a better, so a roll of 20 always misses, whereas a roll of 1 always hits and bypasses all armor. So even though it's centered on the d20, the feel is quite different.


I already mentioned a bit about genre, and I think it has an enormous impact on how satisfying the different levels of granularity and forms of dice usage are. Let's say you were playing a game all about wonder, enchantment, and magic, and maybe marketed to a young crowd. Having a lot of different highly colorful custom dice to use would really enhance the imagery. Say the dice are really visually attractive and color coded based on size, and when you cast a spell you roll a combination of different dice based on the type of effect (which you can spontaneously create on the spot). You grab the red (d8) for a damaging effect, the blue (d12) for a defensive effect, the yellow (d4) for a mental effect, etc. Or, in a narrative horror game you might want low numbers, and having larger dice to use is bad for you. You only get one to roll, and you want that one to be as small as possible. Maybe even color code it so the larger die sizes are progressively darker shades of grey (or other appropriate colors).
I've toyed with ideas like this, but I never put forth the effort to make them work (and I don't know any of the games I design would really benefit from them). But definitely, these ideas are brilliant when they're done right. Look at how Heroquest (or the later Heroscape) used dice with skulls and shields - it's one of the best dice systems around, and when you get down to it they're only a bunch of d6's.

Anyway Sword of Spirit, you should put your game (or bits of it) up on the House Rules section so we can take a better look at it.


Does make me wonder about the "buckets of dice systems" where you roll several dice and compare them all with a target number or use some other method to get a result. Shadowrun, original Storyteller System, HERO system, Wordplay, Cortex (to some degree). Their are some systems where you can be rolling up to 40 dice at times, yet people still seem to enjoy them.

Is d% at least better than these? Or because they use some other mechanic that isn't just the "false precision" d% give they get a pass?
No need for scare quotes; false precision is real concept. Look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision

Anyway, whether or not you run into false precision depends on the granularity, not the number of dice. It may be tedius to throw, say, 20 dice, but the tedium is a separate issue. So long as each die is only treated as a success or failure, then your granularity the same as for a d20 system. On the other hand, if those dice are read as numbers and then all added up, then your granularity can be quite high.


How would you do experience progression if you switched CoC to d20? In the d% system it only goes up by 1d6 at a time, so usually less than 5, so smaller than you can measure on a d20.
I played a Lovecraft game with a 2d6 system which (coincidentally) used a skill progression mechanic rather similar to Call of Cthulhu:

Every time you rolled a critical or a tie, put a check mark by your skill. Then after the session, make a skill check; if you fail, improve the skill by 1. This meant that skills improved more and more slowly as you mastered them, and gave a good rate of progression overall.

To give you an idea of how effective this was, after using this system a few times for various different genres, none of my players ever agreed to play regular Cthulhu, D&D, or any other published game system ever again, despite my occasionally suggesting a change for variety! This doesn't mean that the experience system specifically was better than Chaosism's, or even that the system as a whole was better. But clearly it did work.
 

I'm interested in an RPG system that uses bananas for task resolution. Or puppies.
Right, but you're not really paying attention to the point I'm trying to make. A dGoogol system would require throwing a hundred d10s and then assigning each one to a digit of a giant number. Every time you rolled, you would need to have all hundred dice. And you would need to know which dice was the millions place, which was the quadrillions place, and so on. You would need to carry them to and from the game, and keep your kid brother or your dog from losing any of them. Probably you would need to count them frequently to see that you had all hundred of them. The alternative, of course, would be to do something like carry around only one die, and then sit there and roll it a hundred times whenever you needed to make a skill check. Mike, this is not fun. This is pure tedium.

Show me the ISO standard for fun.
I vacillated about answering your post, because I generally don't like to reply to people if they're likely to regard my rebuttals as antagonistic. But Mike - I am showing you the ISO standard for fun. You aren't paying any attention. You would rather make objections about bananas and pick nits about whether a hypothetical skill system starts at 0 than understand that there really is an objective component to the fun of roleplaying games, and that, even if the d100 might still be fun to some people, at some point - like, when your granularity gets near the size of a googol - the dice system will be unanimously agreed upon as un-fun by all.

If you like d100 systems, fine. But unless you're interested in considering how they might be better or worse than other systems under which contexts, then I'm going to tell you that you really don't want to be posting in this thread.
 

No need for scare quotes; false precision is real concept. Look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision

Anyway, whether or not you run into false precision depends on the granularity, not the number of dice.

The quotes are because I'm quoting your opinion which I don't happen to share, not because I don't believe false precision doesn't exist. If you look at the examples on the link you provide, they don't actually apply in to a d% system, so only as you arn't just rounding to the nearest 5%.

In a d% system 34% is statistically different from 36%, when rolled on percentile dice that isn't a false precision. Someone with a 2% higher skill is more skilled if only fractionally so, and about 2% of the time that will matter.

It might be unnecessary precision, that's a matter of taste, but it isn't false precision, hence the quotes.

False precision would be if you listed % values of skills but then only rolled a d20 and multiplied the result by 5 to see if you passed, or a d10 and multiplied by 10.

Your 2d6, CoC for example will actually lead to faster advancement as you progression steps are bigger than in a d% system, although pyramid probability compared to the flat d% probability might help slow it down towards the end, at the beginning it will actually speed things up. If anything your system has more "false precision" as an improvement of 1 on a skill means different things at different levels, where as it might look the same at first.

At least in a percentile system a 1% improvement is always a 1% improvement.
 
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Right, but you're not really paying attention to the point I'm trying to make.

...

I vacillated about answering your post, because I generally don't like to reply to people if they're likely to regard my rebuttals as antagonistic. But Mike - I am showing you the ISO standard for fun. You aren't paying any attention.

...

But unless you're interested in considering how they might be better or worse than other systems under which contexts, then I'm going to tell you that you really don't want to be posting in this thread.

Actually I deliberately paid attention to your original argument, which I disagree with because I believe it confounds an opinion with a fact.


I also believe the reason you give for this argument (vis-a-vis false precision) does not take into account other reasons that may exist for using a percentile system.


Claiming that a deliberately fallacious random number generator somehow proves your point is a red herring.


You said yourself that your post was a deliberately controversial statement, so it should come as no surprise that someone might disagree with you. Claiming that I'm not paying attention is disingenuous. I've provided examples of d%-based games that I consider to be good or bad. What I take issue with is your claim that any given system is categorically better or worse than all others. Such a claim is an opinion and therefore subjective.
 

But Mike - I am showing you the ISO standard for fun. You aren't paying any attention. You would rather make objections about bananas and pick nits about whether a hypothetical skill system starts at 0 than understand that there really is an objective component to the fun of roleplaying games, and that, even if the d100 might still be fun to some people, at some point - like, when your granularity gets near the size of a googol - the dice system will be unanimously agreed upon as un-fun by all.
This post is just incredibly amusing to me. And, of course, if literally everyone objected to how "un-fun" something is, it would still be subjective. That's how fun works. Just because nobody sees something as fun doesn't mean that it's objective, now. It just means everyone, subjectively, agrees.
If you like d100 systems, fine. But unless you're interested in considering how they might be better or worse than other systems under which contexts, then I'm going to tell you that you really don't want to be posting in this thread.
Okay, man, keep telling other people what is objectively un-fun. I'm sure you'll convince everyone else at some point. You have fun with that, while I'll be having fun with other things. At least, until I know that it's actually not fun... As always, play what you like :)
 

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