Perception from Dexterity

[Kzach]

It just makes more sense, both thematically and mechanically.

Rogues with 8 Wisdom make poor trap finders and scouts. Clerics are now better trapfinders and scouts than rogues... wtf?

I'm sure that somewhere and in someone's brain space that it makes sense that perception be based on Wisdom, however for me at least, it simply doesn't work in the game.

The fact that the concept extends deeper into the system than just the perception skill also bothers me. Fighters with high wisdom? Huh? No more kicking in the door and rushing headlong into battle for the wise warrior!

It also works for the warrior to change it to Dexterity since currently Dex is a dump stat, unless you want it for the feat prereqs later on, and then you have to sacrifice Wis, Con or Str to get it.

And changing it wouldn't punish rangers either since they like Dex as well. Might temper them a bit, but let's face it, they need a little tempering

So who's with me?

 

[Warrior147]

An advantaged 1st level cleric with a Wisdom of 18 and a +2 racial bonus would have a Wisdom modifier of +5. Since Perception is not on the cleric's class skills list, a +5 bonus is the maximum bonus a 1st level cleric could have is +5 (not including any racial skill bonuses).

A 1st level rouge who wants to be good at Perception should place his 8 in Strength, Constitution, Charisma, or Intelligence. A high Intelligence is useless because the rogue already gains the initiative, AC, and reflex bonus from Dexterity. Rogues are not defenders, and don't benefit from many hit points, so Constitution is unnecessary. A rouge should have a high Strength, or Charisma, but only needs one. Using the standard 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8 method, a rogue should place his 11 in Wisdom, granting him a +0 bonus. However, training in Perception gives him a +5 bonus.

The 1st level cleric and rogue now both have +5 Perception bonuses. If the rogue plays a race with a +2 Wisdom bonus, he would have a Wisdom modifier of +1, increasing his Perception bonus to +6, higher than a 1st level cleric could hope to achieve. A cleric could, of course, expend a feat on skill training Perception, increasing his bonus to +10 but is not likely to do so, since Perception is not a cleric's specialisation. The rogue, on the other hand, should take Skill Focus, Perception, as his 1st level feat, granting him a +3 Perception bonus, and increasing his Perception bonus to +9.

An extremely Perception focused human cleric, could, take Skill Training, Perception, and Skill Focus, Perception, increasing his Perception bonus to +13, out of reach of a combat effective rogue. However, most clerics would prefer to improve their healing abilities, or take Skill Focus, Heal, or Skill Focus, Religion, instead.

Adding racial +2 Perception bonuses, a desperate cleric would have a Perception bonus of +15 and the rogue would have a Perception bonus of +11. Most rogues, though, have a higher Perception bonus than stereotype clerics.

 

[Kingreaper]

If you want rogues to have a bonus at perception, why muck around with anything other than rogues themselves?

Do you spot things by moving around dextrously? Not unless it's silent and dark.
But rogues may have special training in trapfinding. Why not make a utility or something available for them that helps?

 

[keterys]

Something like 'Rogues may use Thievery in place of Perception to find traps.'

 

[CapnZapp]

So who's with me?

I would be suspicious.

Sure your player doesn't just want a free lunch?

 

[77IM]

I vote no.

For one thing, it doesn't make any sense to me. Dexterity is about movement, poise, coordination, agility, etc. and has little to do with sensing the world around you (except perhaps manual Dexterity).

For another, Perception is an awesome skill, one of the best. If you remove it from Wisdom, then what has Wisdom got left? Not Will defense, if you've got a high Charisma. And Heal and Nature and Insight are all decent skills but not enough, in my experience, to make people really want Wisdom.

If a rogue put an 8 in Wisdom, that means he had more points available to spend elsewhere. That was his decision to make that trade-off. If you let Perception be based on Dex (or Cha, a more reasonable switch), then there hasn't really been any trade-off because the character hasn't lost anything. That rogue can take Skill Focus (Perception) if it really bothers him; think of it as spending a feat to get ability score points (like a character who takes Con as a dump stat and then takes the Toughness feat, or who takes Str as a dump stat and then takes the Melee Training feat).

-- 77IM

 

[vagabundo]

I vote no, it doesn't do it for me.

Something like 'Rogues may use Thievery in place of Perception to find traps.'

This.

 

[Garthanos]

Giving a player benefit of the doubt he is role-playing and wants the character to be seen as not having "wisdom" --- one of the functions of wisdom is discipline ... starting with the fighter with low discipline picture a guard on duty starts thinking about his party time activities instead of his duties or the current danger... his perception is lowered. The heroic fighter has down to earth wisdom doesn't mean he isnt an aggressive "" that slams down the door before his companions decided he should (it means he weighed the pros and cons and decided faster than they did ie decisiveness can be wise too -- I think wisdom could be used for initiative)
Player says by lowering wisdom, "I picture this character making bad decisions"...
DM and game says the ultimate bad decision is skipping the safety checks or being impatient and thinking they aren't important, ie you tripped the trap due to lack of patience (low wisdom).
"But I want a character who is impatient and makes bad decisions" but still stays aware and pays attention when disarming traps... oh says the DM take skill focus.

I am really not seeing a problem --- > with the way it works currently

 

[Kzach]

For one thing, it doesn't make any sense to me. Dexterity is about movement, poise, coordination, agility, etc. and has little to do with sensing the world around you (except perhaps manual Dexterity).

And yet wisdom has nothing to do with sensing the world around you. It was an arbitrarily assigned skill to an ability lacking punch.

Dexterity is a better fit unless you pigeon-hole it to be nothing more than a physical stat. Mental dexterity includes awareness and perception. To be quick to react to your surroundings or to very agile and co-ordinated, you have to be keenly aware of your surroundings.

Separating stats into 'mental/physical' is a flaw in the system and a carry over from previous editions mentality. There is a holistic aspect to all abilities and mental adroitness should be as much a part of Dexterity as the physical aspect since they are intrinsically linked anyway. Can't have one without the other.

For another, Perception is an awesome skill, one of the best. If you remove it from Wisdom, then what has Wisdom got left? Not Will defense, if you've got a high Charisma. And Heal and Nature and Insight are all decent skills but not enough, in my experience, to make people really want Wisdom.

Thanks for agreeing with me that it was an arbitrary assignment.

But how does this make it a good justification?

At the end of the day, assigning Perception to Wisdom gives classes who shouldn't be all that perceptive, high perception, and classes that should be highly perceptive, low perception.

Warlords, paladins, wizards, clerics, invokers and fighters all have decent wisdoms as part of their builds. And yet none of them are atypically perceptive.

Rogues, barbarians and bards should all be perceptive and yet are punished by being forced to either sacrifice their primary stats or the need for a feat to compensate in an area that they should be good at simply due to natural ability. Rangers and avengers should also be good at this and are, but only because Wisdom plays a role in their stat assignments. And yet, changing it to Dexterity doesn't punish those two classes either.

If a rogue put an 8 in Wisdom, that means he had more points available to spend elsewhere. That was his decision to make that trade-off. If you let Perception be based on Dex (or Cha, a more reasonable switch), then there hasn't really been any trade-off because the character hasn't lost anything. That rogue can take Skill Focus (Perception) if it really bothers him; think of it as spending a feat to get ability score points (like a character who takes Con as a dump stat and then takes the Toughness feat, or who takes Str as a dump stat and then takes the Melee Training feat).

Decision? You rarely have the choice to make. 18 minimum in a primary stat and really, you should be having a 16 in your secondary. That leaves your poor melee-centric character with a pissy Con but it's better than putting an 8 in it. Or should they put an 8 in Int or Charisma with a lot of their skills based off of those?

Wisdom is the logical choice as a dump stat for the rogue and barbarian and bard, and this punishes them simply due to a poor design decision. Dexterity is the far better fit for Perception, both thematically and mechanically.

 

[77IM]

And yet wisdom has nothing to do with sensing the world around you. It was an arbitrarily assigned skill to an ability lacking punch.

Dexterity is a better fit unless you pigeon-hole it to be nothing more than a physical stat.

Wisdom has represented awareness since 3e, and in many d20 derivatives (in fact, in 3e it was the defining characteristic of Wisdom; any creature that could sense the world around it had a Wisdom, and if your Wisdom got drained you couldn't sense anything). Conversely, Dexterity has pretty much always been a purely physical stat. "Mental dexterity?" That may make a lot of sense to you -- and I can understand how that might work in other role-playing games -- but to me, at my game table, that's not what it means for D&D.

Thanks for agreeing with me that it was an arbitrary assignment.

But how does this make it a good justification?

I don't agree that it was an arbitrary assignment, and I'm not sure how you got that. I think it is a very sensible assignment. (Although I could also see assigning Perception to Int, I think that weakens Wisdom too much too, as its remaining skills aren't that good.)

For "how does this make it a good justification," you tell me: How do you justify ANY skill relating to ANY ability score? What exactly are the ability scores supposed to represent? Why the heck is Religion based on Int but Nature based on Wis? Or, why is Thievery based on Dex -- doesn't it make more sense that disarming a trap or picking a lock is a job for someone really Intelligent?

These are not easy questions. Many RPGs grapple with them and achieve unsatisfactory results. If you think being very dexterous and agile should help you notice distant objects or find tracks, and you're not worried about making Dex slightly stronger and Wis slightly weaker, then by all means switch Perception to Dex. I think it's a mistake, but it's a somewhat subjective issue.

-- 77IM