Perception from Dexterity

[Garthanos]

"Un-wise theives get caught in the trap..." isnt that normal? doesnt it sound correct? It sure does to me, standard english definition of wisdom.

And the undisciplined and impatient (signs of low wisdom considered common in thieves) rogue thinks his dexterity will make him the best at "standing guard"? does that not sound incorrect?!

Notice not all rogues are in that category.. some are ninja and assassin like types for whom wisdom sure sounds appropriate.

A bunch of things are simplified in this game and one skill "perception" is probably over broadly used. My game play rarely includes mechanical traps which you feel around for with your nimble fingers (I do get that idea) they are mostly ambushes which call more for discipline and patience and sustaining awareness ie traits the game includes in wisdom.

 

[BobTheNob]

Something like 'Rogues may use Thievery in place of Perception to find traps.'

This is what our group is doing at the moment. It solves the problem pretty well.

 

[N0Man]

Dexterity comes from the word Dexter, which is the right hand.

Mental Dexterity = Mental Right-Handedness.

You may argue that Wisdom doesn't make sense for perception, however being dexterous, coordinated, or quick does not make one more perceptive. To me, that makes even less sense, and the only purpose is to favor the rogue.

Wisdom in D&D has been about practical knowledge, focus, and mental discipline. It's not really a big stretch to associate these traits with perception. It also makes a certain amount of sense for Insight, and really these are very two close skills.

Perception is about being focused, observant, and having insight to your environment, while Insight has the exact same impact on social and intangible observations.

 

[77IM]

Here's a house rule that may address some of the issue by reducing the importance of Wisdom to Perception without eliminating it.

If you're trained in Arcana, you can use Arcana instead of Perception to notice magical phenomena (not including invisible creatures).

If you're trained in Dungeoneering, you can use Dungeoneering instead of Perception to search for disguised stonework (including secret doors, movable panels, and concealed holes) and to search for tracks underground.

If you're trained in Heal, you can use Heal instead of Perception to notice the symptoms of a disease or to notice poison (such as realizing that a funny smell is toxic gas).

If you're trained in History, you can use History instead of Perception to search anything that is out-of-place for its historical or cultural context (for example, if an old dwarven ruin contains some elven carvings, you could use History to search the carvings).

If you're trained in Insight, you can use Insight instead of Perception to understand what is being said in an overheard conversation.

If you're trained in Nature, you can use Nature instead of Perception to search for natural phenomena (such as particular plants and animals, or geographic features) and to search for tracks outdoors.

If you're trained in Religion, you can use Religion instead of Perception to actively search places or objects of religious significance.

If you're trained in Thievery, you can use Thievery instead of Perception to search for traps and to notice concealed weapons.

If you're trained in Perception, you can use it for all its normal uses, including all of the above.
​

The rationale is that "awareness" is such a generic and useful trait that it shouldn't be limited to just one skill with one ability score. So Perception is still useful for character concepts that are generally aware, but character concepts that are more focussed can still notice items relating to their areas of expertise. (When 4e came out, I was kind of surprised it didn't work this way, particularly searching for traps [Thievery] and searching for tracks [Nature].)

-- 77IM

 

[Kzach]

The dictionary definitions and the synonyms of the two words:

wisdom |ˈwɪzdəm|
noun
the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
• the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of such experience, knowledge, and good judgment : some questioned the wisdom of building the dam so close to an active volcano.
• the body of knowledge and principles that develops within a specified society or period : oriental wisdom.
See note at knowledge .
PHRASES
in someone's wisdom used ironically to suggest that an action is not well judged : in their wisdom they decided to dispense with him.
ORIGIN Old English wīsdōm (see wise 1 , -dom ).

wisdom
noun
1 we questioned the wisdom of the decision sagacity, intelligence, sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, prudence, circumspection; logic, rationale, rationality, soundness, advisability. antonym folly, stupidity.
2 the wisdom of the East knowledge, learning, erudition, sophistication, scholarship, philosophy; lore. See note at knowledge .

dexterity |dɛkˈstɛrɪti|
noun
skill in performing tasks, esp. with the hands : her dexterity with chopsticks | his record testifies to a certain dexterity in politics.
ORIGIN early 16th cent. (in the sense [mental adroitness] ): from French dextérité, from Latin dexteritas, from dexter ‘on the right.’

dexterity
noun
1 painting china demanded dexterity deftness, adeptness, adroitness, agility, nimbleness, handiness, ability, talent, skill, proficiency, expertise, experience, efficiency, mastery, delicacy, knack, artistry, finesse.
2 his political dexterity shrewdness, astuteness, acumen, acuity, intelligence; ingenuity, inventiveness, cleverness, smartness; canniness, sense, discernment, insight, understanding, penetration, perception, perspicacity, discrimination; cunning, artfulness, craftiness; informal horse sense, savvy, street smarts.

 

[77IM]

The Player's Handbook defines Dexterity and Wisdom as specific game terms with specific meanings that don't necessarily match the standard English definition. (If it helps you think about it differently, look up Dex and Wis in the dictionary and see what you find.)

You can redefine these to mean whatever you want at your game table, but I think you will find that the vast majority of players would not expect Dexterity to help Perception any more than Strength would help Diplomacy or Intelligence would help Acrobatics.

-- 77IM

 

[Garthanos]

Here's a house rule that may address some of the issue by reducing the importance of Wisdom to Perception without eliminating it.

If you're trained in Arcana, you can use Arcana instead of Perception to notice magical phenomena (not including invisible creatures).

If you're trained in Dungeoneering, you can use Dungeoneering instead of Perception to search for disguised stonework (including secret doors, movable panels, and concealed holes) and to search for tracks underground.

If you're trained in Heal, you can use Heal instead of Perception to notice the symptoms of a disease or to notice poison (such as realizing that a funny smell is toxic gas).

If you're trained in History, you can use History instead of Perception to search anything that is out-of-place for its historical or cultural context (for example, if an old dwarven ruin contains some elven carvings, you could use History to search the carvings).

If you're trained in Insight, you can use Insight instead of Perception to understand what is being said in an overheard conversation.

If you're trained in Nature, you can use Nature instead of Perception to search for natural phenomena (such as particular plants and animals, or geographic features) and to search for tracks outdoors.

If you're trained in Religion, you can use Religion instead of Perception to actively search places or objects of religious significance.

If you're trained in Thievery, you can use Thievery instead of Perception to search for traps and to notice concealed weapons.

If you're trained in Perception, you can use it for all its normal uses, including all of the above.
​

The rationale is that "awareness" is such a generic and useful trait that it shouldn't be limited to just one skill with one ability score. So Perception is still useful for character concepts that are generally aware, but character concepts that are more focussed can still notice items relating to their areas of expertise. (When 4e came out, I was kind of surprised it didn't work this way, particularly searching for traps [Thievery] and searching for tracks [Nature].)

-- 77IM

Slick .. houserule, my thinking in games with highly varying skills allowing somebody to combine there skill rating with a different attribute based on the particular function you were doing with the skill... Remembering a fact about a period in history use intelligence, realising how that was influencing somebody now use charisma etc. Yours works for D&D though very cool.

 

[Garthanos]

The dictionary definitions and the synonyms of the two words:

Do very little for us, notice intelligence and "horse sense" as synonyms listed even before the one you want... I guess we could just throw out the mental stats and use dexterity for everything.

 

[Garthanos]

Do very little for us, notice intelligence and "horse sense" as synonyms listed even before the one you want... I guess we could just throw out the mental stats and use dexterity for everything.

Smoothness and tact are also synonyms (check out thesaurus.com) so we can ditch charisma if we want.

One quotable definition of intelligence is "the ability to perceive, understand" and alertness is one of the synonyms for it....

I will cite thesaurus.com as a source for the above... it makes far more sense than looking down the tree of synonyms of dexterity, defined after "political dexterity" which is under the banner of charisma I am quite certain in D&D.

Noting that the first definitions you usually see for intelligence are still about "aquiring information/knowledge" which is what the perception skill is used for I should argue my wizard should use intelligence for all his perception rolls ... and since I like wizards more than rogues ... that ought to be my house rule...

but ... I think I will just figure the game included that part of intelligence under the banner of wisdom.

 

[Kzach]

The Player's Handbook defines Dexterity and Wisdom as specific game terms with specific meanings that don't necessarily match the standard English definition. (If it helps you think about it differently, look up Dex and Wis in the dictionary and see what you find.)

You can redefine these to mean whatever you want at your game table, but I think you will find that the vast majority of players would not expect Dexterity to help Perception any more than Strength would help Diplomacy or Intelligence would help Acrobatics.

-- 77IM

Quoting RAW in a Houserules thread? Seriously?