perception of OD&D/AD&D as random deathtraps

[Korgoth]

Some people are the same way with social interactions. Rather than say what your character says and just have it be as convincing as it actually is, they'd rather "roll their skill". I like the idea of taking the descriptive approach with searching also.

Why roll the dice when you can just describe it? Let's leave the dice for physical activities (jumping the chasm, swinging the sword) and let wit and imagination hold sway where possible.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet we'll see the usual parade of strawmen trotted out any time now. "Then why don't you LARP?" "What if I want to play a character smarter than me?" etc.

OD&D has perhaps been eye-opening in this regard. There are rules for combat and spell casting, and everything else is open. Why? Well... maybe because using your wits and imagination as much as possible is fun?

This is a criticism that isn't just applicable to 3.5, of course. It's equally applicable to Classic and 1E. Checking the door for traps is reduced to a roll. Searching is reduced to a roll. Too much rolling, not enough getting your imaginary hands dirty.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well... maybe because using your wits and imagination as much as possible is fun?

Going through "The Door Litany" is neither an exercise in wit nor in imagination.

 

[shilsen]

I'm in the "saving throws giving you a chance to cheat death are gracious" camp.

I'm in the "death is gracious" camp. Keeping PCs alive to suffer through the results of their failures isn't gracious. And I'm not gracious.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Going through "The Door Litany" is neither an exercise in wit nor in imagination.

A valid point: descriptive searching can become repetitive (and thus boring). In practice, this typically resolves iteself, though. DMs and players come to an understanding about "standard searches," and such things can be handled speedily. If the players feel a specific search warrants more attention, then they can say things like "we search the chest for the usual things, but I also want to pay particular attention to those decorative carvings you mentioned; can you give me more details?" Or "I search the chest, as usual, but I want to make sure I don't move it; I'm suspicious of the pedestal it's sitting on...do I see anything unusal or interesting about it?" Et cetera.

 

[danzig138]

Too much rolling, not enough getting your imaginary hands dirty.

Blah blah blah, badwrongfun, all hail the superior style, more blah. If you want to say you're "better", please, just say it.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet we'll see the usual parade of strawmen trotted out any time now.

Ah, the old standard of the pre-emptive labeling. "I'm gonna stick my fingers in my ears and nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you! Your way is wrong nyah nyah nyah!" And to think I just cleaned out the IL.

 

[Gentlegamer]

A valid point: descriptive searching can become repetitive (and thus boring). In practice, this typically resolves iteself, though. DMs and players come to an understanding about "standard searches," and such things can be handled speedily. If the players feel a specific search warrants more attention, then they can say things like "we search the chest for the usual things, but I also want to pay particular attention to those decorative carvings you mentioned; can you give me more details?" Or "I search the chest, as usual, but I want to make sure I don't move it; I'm suspicious of the pedestal it's sitting on...do I see anything unusal or interesting about it?" Et cetera.

This largely what I mean when I say that D&D (or at least old school D&D) is a co-operative game. Even when the DM is controlling "enemy" situations (hazards, traps), there is co-operation between the referee and the other participants on how their communication will be interpreted and adjudicated. A group tends to come to an understanding on such matters, just as you describe. A new player (including DM) may need a period of adjustment to the group's communication style . . . this is part of the social faculties that a role-playing game requires the participants to exercise.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's be careful about aggression levels and putting words in others' mouths, please.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Hussar]

At the point where such a saving throw is allowed, the player has already acted rashly/foolishly/incautiously with poor tactics/strategy and put his player character in the situation. It should be noted that the DM could simply rule that the character is dead, and that a saving throw is a last-ditch effort to avoid making such a ruling. That is, save-or-die is less harsh than what the character probably deserves (die, no save).

Really? The only time a save or die effect comes up is when the player has been incautious?

I recall a rather large number of creatures in 1e with poison. Sure, you could run from every snake, spider and whatnot you come across, but, at some point, you are going to have to fight them. Or things like Basilisks and medusae which also come with save or die effects bundled in. Or, to put it another way, the party could be cautious and tactical all it likes, but, eventually SOMEONE is going to have to make a save or die roll, even if its just because the bad guy poisoned his sword.

That's a pretty broad brush you're swinging there.

 

[Melan]

snake, spider and whatnot

ranged attacks, spells, avoidance

Basilisks and medusae

run like hell, throw back a fireball or two*

bad guy poisoned his sword.

does happen; thankfully, OD&D/1st edition characters are easy to make, especially if we go into "cousins" and "long lost brothers who show up right in time for the funeral"

That's a pretty broad brush you're swinging there.

But isn't everyone? :\

*Seriously, NEVER engage monsters that have petrification unless you have to. The only exception I can think of are cockatrices, who are rather wimpy, and only stone on a successful melee attack. In any case, they don't even have much treasure, just a bunch of boring statues around their lair...

 

[Doug McCrae]

The descriptive style of searching for traps/treasure looks pretty boring to me. It's a lot more time consuming than a die roll. I just wouldn't enjoy stuff like:

Player: I push the torch bracket up. Does anything happen?
DM: No.
Player: I push the torch bracket down. Does anything happen?
DM: No.
Player: I push the torch bracket inwards. Does anything happen?
DM: No.
Player: I pull the torch bracket outwards. Does anything happen?
DM: No.
Player: I turn the torch bracket clockwise. Does anything happen?
DM: No.
Player: I turn the torch bracket anti-clockwise. Does anything happen?
DM: A secret door opens