Perception: We've all gone blind!

[cdrcjsn]

If you hide during combat, you make an opposed stealth check. If the mobs fail, then they can take a minor action on their turns to make another check against your last stealth check.

This is the method to finding an enemy during your turn that you cannot see (tangent, but it's really annoying that they put this rule off on page 281 instead of in the Stealth or Perception section).

So if you are a rogue trying to hide against an opponent for combat advantage, you can do so with a succesful hide check as part of your move to get cover or concealment (-5 if you move more than 2 squares). If you beat your target's rolled perception check with your stealth check then you're effectively hidden from him until one of the following occurs:
1) You attack (you automatically lose Stealth after the attack)
2) Your opponent moves to a position where you no longer have cover or concealment
3) Your opponent makes a succesful Perception check on its turn.

 

[LowSpine]

2) In general, you are making 1 stealth roll against 3, 4, or 5 perception rolls. If even 1 perception roll hits, they will find you. Keeping that in mind, stealth may actually be too hard!

That is one of many instances when I believe you should have a group roll.

Someone from the group rolls for the whole party/monster group. Then everyone adds their mods.

Only one roll - only one chance (sort of) to detect and only the best observers detect.

Of course this only applies to those who are actually trying to detect.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think his point was that the +5 from training is a big bonus at 1st level. Later on, not so much because of getting 1/2 level bonuses and such. So, you drop it when it's no longer necessary.

Not quite true. The opposition tends to get the 1/2 level bonuses at the same time as the PCs, so it matters not. 1st level or 21st level, the +5 bonus is still big.

 

[silentounce]

Not quite true. The opposition tends to get the 1/2 level bonuses at the same time as the PCs, so it matters not. 1st level or 21st level, the +5 bonus is still big.

Well, then it's worth keeping, so don't retrain.

Heh, this is what I get for trying to explain something that someone else said.

 

[Eldorian]

Not quite true. The opposition tends to get the 1/2 level bonuses at the same time as the PCs, so it matters not. 1st level or 21st level, the +5 bonus is still big.

You both missed it. His point is that this so called problem was far worse in the previous edition because discrepancy between untrained and trained observers was larger at even modest levels. And in the previous edition, it wasn't a problem.

 

[IanArgent]

You both missed it. His point is that this so called problem was far worse in the previous edition because discrepancy between untrained and trained observers was larger at even modest levels. And in the previous edition, it wasn't a problem.

The heck it wasn't a problem. It was a HUGE problem. It was an even worse problem for adventure designers who didn't know what skillset the player characters had. I went through this argument months ago when the rumors of a SWSE-like skill system first cropped up. I contended then and I contend now that this may not be a perfect solution, but it's a MUCH better solution than the alternatives.

 

[silentounce]

It was an even worse problem for adventure designers who didn't know what skillset the player characters had.

Wow, that comment just gave me an epiphany. I now realize a lot of the "thought" that went behind the designing of this system. This system was designed with the designers in mind, not the DMs who know their players. A lot of you will probably like this, but I don't, and I'm sure a lot of the people that are having the same issues that I am with the changes won't. Wow, everything is so clear now.

 

[Blackbrrd]

At first level there you essentially have a +4 (3e) or +5 (4e) if you are trained in the skill

At level 10 this is +14 (3e) and +5 (4e).

In other words: in earlier editions you wouldn't stand any chance at all, even a 20 wouldn't help. Now you can just spend one of those feats that don't do too much to get your eyes open.

Personally, I think all the characters in my upcoming will have training in perception by level 6. Its a choice that is so easy I begin to dislike it a bit. On the other hand, some of those characters might want to spend 4 feats on getting plate and heavy shield instead of just chain proficiency.

Oh... I noticed one thing, the armor check penalty in 4e is -2 for plate and -1 for chain and hide. Scale actually doesn't have a armor check penalty. That means you can have a fighter in scale mail and a light shield actually being kinda sneaky!

 

[Surgoshan]

2) In general, you are making 1 stealth roll against 3, 4, or 5 perception rolls. If even 1 perception roll hits, they will find you. Keeping that in mind, stealth may actually be too hard!

That is one of many instances when I believe you should have a group roll.

Someone from the group rolls for the whole party/monster group. Then everyone adds their mods.

Only one roll - only one chance (sort of) to detect and only the best observers detect.

Of course this only applies to those who are actually trying to detect.

You're rolling against multiple perception rolls, BUT if one person finds you, that doesn't mean all the rest of them can see you! It just means that they know which square you're in and can make an attack at -5 to hit you.

Thir, dragonborn rogue, cries, "He's behind the tree! Shoot at the tree!"
Elfargilmahelsabefingaheliardomajne, elven archer, shrugs, says, "Okay...", and fires.

You can be hidden from one person and not from another.

 

[silentounce]

You're rolling against multiple perception rolls, BUT if one person finds you, that doesn't mean all the rest of them can see you! It just means that they know which square you're in and can make an attack at -5 to hit you.

Thir, dragonborn rogue, cries, "He's behind the tree! Shoot at the tree!"
Elfargilmahelsabefingaheliardomajne, elven archer, shrugs, says, "Okay...", and fires.

You can be hidden from one person and not from another.

Damn it! Now I have to think up a new name for my elven archer character.