Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question

[ElectricDragon]

Ok, here's what I've got so far. Help, Comments?

Intelligence affects your current total skill points as well as your modifier to Intelligence-based skills.
When you gain a point of Intelligence that increases your number of skill points/level; you suddenly find that you understand the skills you had been working on better than before. In game terms:
A. you gain a number of skill points equal to your level that must be spent on skills that you have at least one rank in but are not maxed out for your level.
B. If you have no skills that fall into this category, these extra points are lost.

Descriptive Text
You get better at using your Intelligence-based skills just by your Intelligence increasing.
You, also, better understand the skills you have already gained.

Permanent Intelligence Loss
[still not sure why this has to be a part of the rule; but oh well]
If the Intelligence loss results in a loss in skill points/level, the number of skill points lost times the level of the character is the number of skill points lost:
1.) This is handled after combat (if it happens during combat)
2.) The DM and the affected player get together and decide which skills take the hit and how much on each.
3.) No skill can be unlearned (must have at least one "relative" rank left in each skill)
4.) Chosen skills receive a negative modifier equal to the number of skill points chosen to be lost in that skill that lasts until the condition is removed
5.) The world blows up on schedule.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Ok, here's what I've got so far. Help, Comments?
B. If you have no skills that fall into this category, these extra points are lost.

So... when I create a character, my typical policy regarding skills is simply to put max ranks into any skill that I put ranks into at all. So, for example, playing a human rogue with 10 Intelligence, I have nine skills, each with max ranks. Only when playing a character whose Intelligence changes as they gain levels (an Int-based caster, typically) will I have any skills that are not at max ranks, due to having gained additional skill points at those later levels.

This particular bit of this rule would put all of the characters that I make at a disadvantage over characters built using a more haphazard method of skill point allocation. This rule, in fact, causes the characters that I typically would build to lose the skill points that they normally would gain by increasing their Intelligence.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Ok, here's what I've got so far. Help, Comments?

I'd drop all the bits you wrote to respond to the "But how can PCs learn skills out of nowhere?!" complaints.

So... when I create a character, my typical policy regarding skills is simply to put max ranks into any skill that I put ranks into at all.

Same here. Under these rules, what I'd do is simply put 1 rank into a new skill the level before I planned to boost my Int into the next modifier. Then when I achieved the next modifier, I'd max out that skill and top off the skill I took that 1 rank away from. Which'd be annoying, and also demonstrates how unrealistic D&D is in the first place.

"My new skill ranks are unrealistic!"
--- Complains no player ever.

 

[ElectricDragon]

It would still work sometimes, sniff sniff, because there are skills it is useful to have at least one rank in: you can't try them if you don't have a rank in them (mostly what I classify as rogue-type skills, so the skill monkeys should take care of most of them, but a point in a little-used knowledge skill could give you a try for DC 15 knowledge checks whereas without that point, the info is beyond your capability to know).

But I agree, the stipulations are somewhat realistic but gameplay suffers.

How about this then:

Increases in Intelligence affects your current total skill points as well as your modifier to Intelligence-based skills.
You get better at using your Intelligence-based skills just by increasing your Intelligence.
You, also, better understand the world around you (+ to current total skill points).

Decreases in Intelligence affects your current total skill points as well as your modifier to Intelligence-based skills.
Aforementioned negative penalty to ranks. This increases bookkeeping but that is a problem with the stat-loss mechanics, not this rule itself.

Or drop the Decrease part, too?

 

[Greenfield]

Ok, here's what I've got so far. Help, Comments?

Intelligence affects your current total skill points as well as your modifier to Intelligence-based skills.
When you gain a point of Intelligence that increases your number of skill points/level; you suddenly find that you understand the skills you had been working on better than before. In game terms:
A. you gain a number of skill points equal to your level that must be spent on skills that you have at least one rank in but are not maxed out for your level.
B. If you have no skills that fall into this category, these extra points are lost.

Descriptive Text
You get better at using your Intelligence-based skills just by your Intelligence increasing.
You, also, better understand the skills you have already gained.

Permanent Intelligence Loss
[still not sure why this has to be a part of the rule; but oh well]
If the Intelligence loss results in a loss in skill points/level, the number of skill points lost times the level of the character is the number of skill points lost:
1.) This is handled after combat (if it happens during combat)
2.) The DM and the affected player get together and decide which skills take the hit and how much on each.
3.) No skill can be unlearned (must have at least one "relative" rank left in each skill)
4.) Chosen skills receive a negative modifier equal to the number of skill points chosen to be lost in that skill that lasts until the condition is removed
5.) The world blows up on schedule.

Accepting this in the spirit in which it was given: There are no truly "permanent" stat losses in D&D, other than the possible loss of a CON point if a 1st level PC is raised from the dead. All of the others can be recovered, as far as I know.

<Correction: If a character loses a level due to, say, a Raise Dead, and that level was one where the PC gained an INT point, then that point isn't coming back until the level is earned again. )

If you adopt this variation, you should decide what to do about Synergy bonuses. For example, a character had 5 ranks in Tumble. That grants a Synergy bonus to Jump. If any of the Tumble ranks are penalized, does that affect the synergy bonus?

Technically the Tumble ranks are still there, but some of them are being suppressed. So whether it affects the synergy bonuses is a gray area (or as you like to say, a "corner condition".)

As for skill loss in general: How do the rules handle skill loss when a character loses a level? Currently gaining a negative level adds a penalty to all skill checks, so in many ways that's worse than losing the level.

If there's a clean rule for skill loss from level loss (and I don't know that there is), you might consider using that as a guideline.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Hmmm, and I just wanted a quick easy rule for Int gain. Which, other than re-writing the level loss rules en toto is what I have. So, drop the decrease part, because other than symmetry; why deal with all the messed up loss systems anyway. That is a rule for another problem.

Increases in Intelligence affects your current total skill points as well as your modifier to Intelligence-based skills.
You get better at using your Intelligence-based skills just by increasing your Intelligence.
You, also, better understand the world around you (+ to current total skill points).

Intelligence loss is handled as ad hoc rulings on the spot according to how I feel at the time and have nothing to do with this rule.

How do you handle Intelligence loss?

 

[Greenfield]

Handle the contra-case by not handling it? Okay.

As for your last line, the need to "handle" INT loss only exists in games that use your rule, or something similar. If changes in INT don't affect the current skill base then there's nothing to handle.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

It would still work sometimes, sniff sniff, because there are skills it is useful to have at least one rank in: you can't try them if you don't have a rank in them (mostly what I classify as rogue-type skills, so the skill monkeys should take care of most of them, but a point in a little-used knowledge skill could give you a try for DC 15 knowledge checks whereas without that point, the info is beyond your capability to know).

But I agree, the stipulations are somewhat realistic but gameplay suffers.

Ah yes, it can be strategic to put just 1 rank in this skill, and only enough ranks in that one to get a +x bonus. I just like to KIS.

I'd stipulate that you get your level* in skill points before doing the usual level-up skill point calculation. Otherwise you might wind up with a N/PC with an extra skill point or two. Likewise if a character permanently loses an Int-boosting level, stipulate that the character first loses his level-up skill points, and then his level* in skill points. Alternatively in either case, in order to avoid potential confusion, simply have the player recalculate what his total skill points should be with his new Int score and then have him use points until his total equals what it should be. This can get weird if the character has cross-class ranks, so depending on the character this method can be more trouble than it's worth.

*As a 3.x DM I applied +3 skill points to retroactive Int gains, just as if the character had had a higher Int score from level 1.

Hmmm, and I just wanted a quick easy rule for Int gain. Which, other than re-writing the level loss rules en toto is what I have. So, drop the decrease part, because other than symmetry; why deal with all the messed up loss systems anyway. That is a rule for another problem.

That's definitely a viable option, yes. Even Int drain can be healed IIRC, so unless your PCs are exposed to special truly permanent Int loss effects, skill loss will be transient most of the time, so skill loss rules may not be worth it to begin with.

If you do use skill loss rules though, I don't think most of those you list are worth it. Though I should mention that I don't like using stat loss as a DM and Int loss never came up in my games. Handle it after combat, eh it's inconsistent with handling Con-loss-related HP loss during combat, but I can see the reason. Pow-wowing with the player concerning which skills get lost and by how many ranks -- if there's a particular way you want to handle skill loss, sure, keep the door open to insert yourself into that process. But honestly, there are several 'realistic' standards for that process that all require rather detailed bookkeeping, and I have better things to do as a DM so I'd let the player handle it 100%. No skill can be unlearned, I'd drop that one too.

Not sure about the 'negative rank' modifier to 'lost skills,' I say give it a try but you might end up deciding it's simpler to remove actual ranks.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I was copying the level loss rules. Negative level until removed or converted to actual level loss (does level loss include loss of skill points? if so how do you handle this?). Most negative levels that I recall have a set duration of 24 hours, after which a new saving throw (DC set by effect or monster) determines if the negative level goes away or translates into actual level loss. Enervation specifically says it does not last long enough to translate into actual level loss.

The Intelligence loss rule was patterned after that rule, negative penalties to the ranks of several skills (which would stop synergies if the modified rank drops below the threshold). Most Int loss is permanent until removed, making the duration until removed random instead of set; but otherwise very similar.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Perhaps I should KISS and just make it a blanket -1 rank modifier per point of Intelligence modifier lost to all skills until removed. And as a bone to the players, synergies are not lost.