D&D 5E Persuasion - How powerful do you allow it to be?

[Manbearcat]

When I've run 5e, I've run the Social Interaction resolution mechanics as a combination of a mini Wheel of Fortune + Pictionary puzzle/pantomime game, which I believe to be their intent. Its actually extremely good design and coherent with a game that is, not wholly but certainly significantly, about puzzle solving. I'm confident this was intentful design.

NPC has a concrete Ideal, Bond, Flaw, Trait n, x, y, z.

The player's and GM interact to try to "draw the picture/put letters on the board". Eventually, if the players uncover IBFT's those are used as action resolution leverage for the players to attempt to solve the puzzle (which is the win condition for the social interaction) to get some or all of what they want.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Sometimes. And yet, we see cases where people will risk or accept torture and death rather than be persuaded as well. I don't think it necessarily follows that because people can be persuaded, that they will be persuaded, much less that because some or even most people were persuaded everyone would be.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to resolve that uncertainty with a check.

 

[iserith]

When I've run 5e, I've run the Social Interaction resolution mechanics as a combination of a mini Wheel of Fortune + Pictionary puzzle/pantomime game, which I believe to be their intent. Its actually extremely good design and coherent with a game that is, not wholly but certainly significantly, about puzzle solving. I'm confident this was intentful design.

NPC has a concrete Ideal, Bond, Flaw, Trait n, x, y, z.

The player's and GM interact to try to "draw the picture/put letters on the board". Eventually, if the players uncover IBFT's those are used as action resolution leverage for the players to attempt to solve the puzzle (which is the win condition for the social interaction) to get some or all of what they want.

Yes, that's how it's laid out in the DMG and it works. Figure out the personal characteristics. Use to your advantage to get what you want. From a player's perspective, the optimal path is to line up your higher-Insight characters to observe and suss out the NPC characteristics while the chat is going on, then have them share that information with the higher-Charisma characters who then use it to the greatest effect during the ask. Knowledgeable characters in all likelihood have also taken the opportunity to recall lore about the NPC or the situation prior to or during the interaction which will potentially help the higher-Insight characters achieve their goals. It all feeds into each other and provides a place for most or all characters to engage in the social interaction challenge on some level.

This is why I at least train Insight or Lore skills on a non-Charismatic PC, even if those aren't my primary stats. But of course, having said that, almost no DM I've ever played under ever uses these social interaction rules so I guess I'm just standing on principle to no real effect.

 

[LordEntrails]

My experience is that most DMs do not put much thought at all behind their social interaction challenges. I try to make mine at least as involved as a combat challenge with multiple objections to overcome and stakes that really matter. And because any ability check will come with a meaningful consequence for failure, the last thing anyone wants to do in my game is roll a fickle d20, so you don't see players pushing for ability checks. When they do have to roll, resources like Inspiration get spent to mitigate risk on par with combats.

Perhaps you could be persuaded to start a thread about how to build meaningful and interesting social challenges? I would love that...

 

[iserith]

Perhaps you could be persuaded to start a thread about how to build meaningful and interesting social challenges? I would love that...

I think I might have done that a couple years ago maybe? I'd have to go dredge it up and see if I still agree with anything I wrote at the time (LOL). I'll see what I can do by the weekend. Playing D&D tonight and DMing on Friday so time this week's a bit limited to put together anything comprehensive. Certainly appreciate your interest.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

My experience is that most DMs do not put much thought at all behind their social interaction challenges. I try to make mine at least as involved as a combat challenge with multiple objections to overcome and stakes that really matter. And because any ability check will come with a meaningful consequence for failure, the last thing anyone wants to do in my game is roll a fickle d20, so you don't see players pushing for ability checks. When they do have to roll, resources like Inspiration get spent to mitigate risk on par with combats.

I am now scathingly examining my own session from last night and how it could have gone better. Own worst critic and all that. A nice combat set piece I had prepared got unexpectedly turned into a social interaction that I then muddled through. Good fun was had, methinks, but I should have had a few more SI tricks up my sleeve to employ to make it truly great fun...

Perhaps you could be persuaded to start a thread about how to build meaningful and interesting social challenges? I would love that...

Yes, please! Not that I'm asking to roll CHA (Persuasion) mind you... I'd rather auto-succeed...

 

[LordEntrails]

I think I might have done that a couple years ago maybe? I'd have to go dredge it up and see if I still agree with anything I wrote at the time (LOL). I'll see what I can do by the weekend. Playing D&D tonight and DMing on Friday so time this week's a bit limited to put together anything comprehensive. Certainly appreciate your interest.

Please try and tag me so I don't miss it. And no rush

 

[Mycroft]

the last thing anyone wants to do in my game is roll a fickle d20, so you don't see players pushing for ability checks.

So, gaming the DM?

Just what it sounds like.

 

[iserith]

So, gaming the DM?

Just what it sounds like.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that canard, I'd be a much richer person. (Including all the times I used to say the exact same thing, though now I realize it is a bogus argument.)

I welcome you to google up any number of those arguments on these forums in which I refuted that assertion and use that as my response rather than rehash it here.

 

[Mycroft]

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that canard,

Hey, ditto.

Oh, but I should mention: when the outcome is uncertain and there's a meaningful chance of failure...blah, blah, blah...blah, oh, and The Rules of Play, how could I forget, to have fun and tell a memorable story...yeah, that's it, all this time we were trying to have a dull time and tell a forgettable story!