D&D 3E/3.5 PF fans, help me convert (or not convert) from 3.5!

[Oryan77]

I feel conflicted and I just need a push in the right direction.

I run a 3.5 game and am very heavily invested in it. To the point that I have an ungodly amount of reference files that allow me to quickly & easily speed up preparation of my 3.5 game. I have made custom character & NPC sheets, a custom 3.5 DM screen, and conversion after conversion of older edition monsters to use in my 3.5 game.

The thing is, I really like the Pathfinder core classes & the changes to the core races. One of my players is really pushing me to use PF, but he knows my predicament and would be happy using whatever I chose from PF. The other players are sort of new to D&D and don't realize the difference with PF & 3.5, so they probably will only care about using PF depending on the changes to their current PC.

So I'd like to ask for some advice on how I can switch out the core classes & races without making it hard on my end as DM. Here are some points on my main worries. Please feel free to rant as detailed as you want if you think it will help me out. Or feel free to talk me out of using the PF rules if you feel I would only be making things harder on myself.

1. I don't want it to effect my reference files & custom made 3.5 work.

2. I don't mind if my NPCs still use 3.5 core classes as long as there won't be much of a difference to the CR. If a PF PC Fighter is a bit more powerful than a 3.5 NPC Fighter, that's ok, but would it be enough where I would need to add a level to 3.5 NPCs so their ECL is on par with the PF party?

3. I don't mind using the racial traits from the PF core PC races. But my 3.5 NPCs will still use the 3.5 traits. Other than PCs gaining the extra 2 ability score points, is this a huge problem?

4. I don't want to use the PF skill list. I prefer the 3.5 longer skill list. So I would just use the Class Skills from the 3.5 classes. See any problem with this?

5. I could use the PF Skill points gained per level. Any problem with this?

6. I like the way PF handles how skill points are added to the list of class skills & cross class skills (giving +3 bonus to class skills). Does this make a PF character a lot better at doing skill checks? If I use this method, am I going to screwing up the 3.5 DC checks?

7. I would not use any PF Feats, spells, domains, or any other rules outside of the class specific abilities.

8. I could use the PF Character Advancement and Level-Dependent chart to determine XP and when PCs gain Feats.

9. I would use the PF class hit points, BAB, and Saves per level.

10. I could use the PF Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, but would it matter if I didn't? Not sure how much different they are in PF.

11. Getting the bonuses each level for choosing a Favored Class looks nice, but it looks like a more obscure rule that I'd have to keep up with. Plus it looks like it makes the PF classes even more powerful. Does it matter if I don't use that rule, or any reason why I should be using it?

12. I would use the PF class special abilities, but are there differences to the way any PF abilities work that are different from the 3.5 version that I need to be aware of? For example, some abilities are also Feats. I don't want to confuse myself when a PF PC uses an ability and it works different than my NPCs feat or ability.

13. I don't know a whole lot about PF. These are just things I got familiar with from browsing my book. But is there anything else I should consider in regards to cross-breeding the two editions? Should I not do it? It won't disappoint me if I don't do it. I'm just trying to improve the game for the players but at the same time keep it from causing me a headache in the long run.

 

[BlubSeabass]

My humble opinion:

1. I don't know what your custom made tools consist of, but if it's a quicklist of skill DC's, CR and experience etc. I think you should be fine. Don't know for sure though.

2. Most of the 3.5 classes are significantly weaker then their PF counterparts. This leads to the CR of all 3.5 enemies (including the NPC's) to drop by 1.

3. The way favored classes are handled is also different, take a look at that! (since they're racial in 3.5)

4. I don't see any direct problems with that. You could give them 1 extra skill point per level to match the list length and the overall power level increase.

5. As above.

6. It actually makes things a bit more fair and well spread. Now everybody can be good at a skill, but not as good as the class skill guy. In 3.5, if you wanted to do something "off the class skill rails", you would pay with being less versatile. I prefer the first.

7. CMB && CMD, and channeling could be vital for some classes. I strongly advice to take a good look at them. They're not only part of some class abilities, but they're also a lot easier and fun to use then the grapple/turn list of checks. Domain powers are also a fun mechanic, but if you won't use the PF spell list, I guess the Cleric is already too strong as he is now.

8. YES. More feats improve the gameplay for melee characters vastly, and matches the new power level. Don't see problems with the XP.

9. Doesn't change much, so it would be fine. Wizards get more hp though, so again, if you stick with the 3.5 spell list, it may make em more powerful then they already are.

10. Most important: Cleric loses heavy armor proficiency.

11. Because choices are fun, and the bonus they grant are marginal to say, the extra feat. It does require some extra bookkeeping, but only once per level.

12. Some feats are different now, with the focus on power attack. The difference in abilities...not so much except that bardic performance and rage are now turns a day instead of times a day. And wildshape has been vastly tuned down. And smite is now significantly better.

13. It sounds to me that you got all your stuff prepared, NPC's ready, but the player(s) want to go too the next level. So you don't want to do even more preparation that is already done, but you want to grant the PC their wish. I strongly advice not to mix everything up! When the PC's are using other rules then the DM, its asking for trouble, and using two sets of rules requires even more knowledge and preparation from the DM. I went from 3.5 to PF myself in 2 sessions, just to let everybody get used to their new powers. Here is what I would do:

- read through the rules a bit more, especially the subjects on CMB&CMD, the new polymorph effect spells/abilities, the channel mechanism, classes, skill list and if you got the APG, the favored class thingies.
- IF you like the rules, and your players are enthousiastic about it, play PF. Now for your NPC conversion problems...

CR: Add toughness, weapon focus and/or improved initiative to the NPC. This will put the power up to the new CR standards. This will work less good on later levels though, and you might find yourself wanting to increase the NPC powers a bit more.

Another very good way to solve this problem, is to fake a +4 stat increase in every stat, effectively giving +2 on every roll, and +2 hp/HD. all you really need to recalculate is AC and hp.
powers: At one point, you just know what the PF powers do. Till then, just use your interpretation. The PC's wont note the difference.
Skills: Only one skill is actually new: Fly. The others are just merging. Spot and Listen are Perception, Move Silently and Hide are now Stealth. Just use the modifiers you wrote down, picking the highest on merges.

In my opinion, pathfinder has greatly increased the fun of my players, and slightly decreased my prep time. The simplifications are well thought and don't look stupid, and the balance between classes is restored a bit.

 

[udalrich]

1. I don't want it to effect my reference files & custom made 3.5 work.

One of the design goals of pathfinder was to be backwards compatible and not invalidate 3.5 sourcebooks. That said, there are differences.

2. I don't mind if my NPCs still use 3.5 core classes as long as there won't be much of a difference to the CR. If a PF PC Fighter is a bit more powerful than a 3.5 NPC Fighter, that's ok, but would it be enough where I would need to add a level to 3.5 NPCs so their ECL is on par with the PF party?

The standard in Pathfinder is an NPC with PC classes has CR=level-1. Most of the 3.5 classes are weaker than the PF counterparts, although that might not be true for the strongest ones (cleric, wizard, druid). You will probably want to subtract 1-2 from the CR of your NPC's if you don't otherwise modify them.

As mentioned above, adding Weapon/Spell Focus, PF Toughness (1hp/level, min 3) and/or Improved Initiative is a good idea.

3. I don't mind using the racial traits from the PF core PC races. But my 3.5 NPCs will still use the 3.5 traits. Other than PCs gaining the extra 2 ability score points, is this a huge problem?

They should mostly be the same. If the PC's use point buy, it is sort of like giving them a few extra points.

4. I don't want to use the PF skill list. I prefer the 3.5 longer skill list. So I would just use the Class Skills from the 3.5 classes. See any problem with this?

As mentioned above, the changes are mostly consolidations and a single addition (Fly). If you plan to use the 3.5 rules for flight, then either one works fine.

Personally, I prefer the shorter PF list. In 3.5, I always felt like I was short of skill points. With PF, my character has the skill points to do what I imagine him doing.

5. I could use the PF Skill points gained per level. Any problem with this?

That should be fine.

6. I like the way PF handles how skill points are added to the list of class skills & cross class skills (giving +3 bonus to class skills). Does this make a PF character a lot better at doing skill checks? If I use this method, am I going to screwing up the 3.5 DC checks?

The characters that are expected to be good at the skill will still have the same skill, since both systems give ability mod + level + 3.

The difference is that characters in the "wrong" class will be almost as good, since he will only lose the +3, not (level + 3)/2. So the rogue will be able to sneak past the guard as easily as before, but the fighter will also have a chance (if he has good dex, no armor check penalty and put ranks into the appropriate skills).

Most of the time, it won't make much difference. In certain scenarios, it will matter, especially if the intent is to separate certain classes from the rest of the party by failed skill checks.

7. I would not use any PF Feats, spells, domains, or any other rules outside of the class specific abilities.

8. I could use the PF Character Advancement and Level-Dependent chart to determine XP and when PCs gain Feats.

This will cause the PC's to have more feats, since they are gained every other level, not every third. You probably would want to compensate by adding feats to any existing NPC's, especially at high levels.

9. I would use the PF class hit points, BAB, and Saves per level.

Sounds fine.

10. I could use the PF Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, but would it matter if I didn't? Not sure how much different they are in PF.

There isn't much difference here. Clerics lost Heavy Armor proficiency is the biggest class change.

The biggest other difference that I know is that Mithral Full Plate is still a heavy armor; it just affects your speed like medium armor. So if you only have Medium Armor Proficiency (e.g., Barbarian or Ranger, I think), you need to spend a feat, dip into another class or take the non-prof penalties.

11. Getting the bonuses each level for choosing a Favored Class looks nice, but it looks like a more obscure rule that I'd have to keep up with. Plus it looks like it makes the PF classes even more powerful. Does it matter if I don't use that rule, or any reason why I should be using it?

It's largely to encourage PC's to single class. If you like 17th level PC's who are third level in 6 classes, there's no need to include it. If you do, you probably just want to add 1 hp/level to all of your NPC's. (Since each character gets to pick his favored class, this assumes the NPC is single classed in his favored class and always took the extra hit points.)

12. I would use the PF class special abilities, but are there differences to the way any PF abilities work that are different from the 3.5 version that I need to be aware of? For example, some abilities are also Feats. I don't want to confuse myself when a PF PC uses an ability and it works different than my NPCs feat or ability.

Class abilities are probably the biggest area of changes. Turn Undead was completely rewritten as Channel Energy; sneak attack works against more creature types; bardic music does not disable the bard as much as it used to and is easier to start at high levels. Rage and Smite Evil were also changed.

I suspect that you would want to pick one version of these abilities and say that is how it works for everyone. This is likely to be the most disruptive area.

13. I don't know a whole lot about PF. These are just things I got familiar with from browsing my book. But is there anything else I should consider in regards to cross-breeding the two editions? Should I not do it? It won't disappoint me if I don't do it. I'm just trying to improve the game for the players but at the same time keep it from causing me a headache in the long run.

Grapple, trip, disarm and similar maneuvers were combined into a single mechanic, using CMB (to attack) and CMD (to defend). You'll need to decide which system you are using. The pathfinder version is simpler to understand, as it is always the same process: take the AoO, roll 1d20+CMB and compare to CMD (like attack roll vs AC).

If you do use the PF version, you'll need to calculate CMB and CMD for any relevant NPC's, but it's a pretty simple calculation.

 

[ruemere]

I feel conflicted and I just need a push in the right direction.

There are quite a few threads already... maybe it is time to make a FAQ on Pathfinder? Anyway, these are the links I consider most important for the undecided:

PFRPG Conversion Guide - free guide to converting stuff from 3.5 to PFRPG.

Pathfinder OGL - as in: whole Pathfinder for free and officially. Note: this is much more complete than 3.5 SRD.

Pathfinder OGC - as above, but made by fans, with lots of additional material. Organized by jreyst.

Home for PFRPG products. Absolutely indispensable.

Free products - some of them of professional quality. Included freebie adventures and Bonus Bestiary.

I run a 3.5 game and am very heavily invested in it. To the point that I have an ungodly amount of reference files that allow me to quickly & easily speed up preparation of my 3.5 game. I have made custom character & NPC sheets, a custom 3.5 DM screen, and conversion after conversion of older edition monsters to use in my 3.5 game.

Pathfinder is backwards compatible mostly for statblocks. The rules, spells and classes are quite different.
Still, support material is very well made, so well in fact, that I have had no problems declaring lots of material obsolete (and now I bring only a few books to games).

[...]
13. I don't know a whole lot about PF. These are just things I got familiar with from browsing my book. But is there anything else I should consider in regards to cross-breeding the two editions? Should I not do it? It won't disappoint me if I don't do it. I'm just trying to improve the game for the players but at the same time keep it from causing me a headache in the long run.

For this you really need to read free conversion guide - it will give you much better overview of the changes than zealous fans. Use the link above to download it.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[pawsplay]

It took me about an hour to convert my entire campaign, plus another hour to convert the PCs. I have never looked back. Pathfinder just runs better.

You can drop in Pathfinder classes and racial traits basically without any problem. There is, as you have noticed, no overriding necessity to make the NPCs match, though converting them is probably pretty easy if you want to go to the effort for particular NPCs.

 

[Oryan77]

Thanks for the responses so far. I have a few more questions in regards to what people have said, but I don't have time to ask them just yet.

But I did want to quickly ask; in regards to the PF PCs being more powerful than my 3.5 NPCs, how would it balance out when compared to the fact that I don't have magic item shops where PCs can buy whatever they want?

So their AC, saves, & ability scores may not all be as high as the 3.5 rules may assume they would be if they had been buying these items to boost stats. Their wealth by level is correct, they just have more utility magic items mixed in rather than all stat boosting items as a player may have bought on his own.

For example, the Trailblazer pdf says that on average, a 9th level PC should have a +3 items to boost most of their AC, saves, etc etc. But my PCs may only have +1 or +2 items, but will have several magic utility items.

Is this major enough to warrant using the PF classes for PCs without needing to give NPCs extra feats or boost CRs?

 

[BlubSeabass]

I don't think that will matter much, since the extensive use of utility magic is a sign of inventive players who are very capable of using their resources. My thought is that the increase in power for the players still will decrease the CR of every 3.5 enemy by 1.

 

[Dark Mistress]

stuff

1. I don't want it to effect my reference files & custom made 3.5 work.

PF works well with 3.5 I have used 3.5 adventures more or less as is other than adding in the CMD etc. With that said I don't know your system or what all you reference so hard to say if it would effect it. I mean for example you should only use one set of spells and their effects.

2. I don't mind if my NPCs still use 3.5 core classes as long as there won't be much of a difference to the CR. If a PF PC Fighter is a bit more powerful than a 3.5 NPC Fighter, that's ok, but would it be enough where I would need to add a level to 3.5 NPCs so their ECL is on par with the PF party?

They are stronger but I don't think enough to boost the CR. What I ended up doing is just giving the mobs 75%+ of their hp and it seemed to work out well when I ran 3.5 adventures.

3. I don't mind using the racial traits from the PF core PC races. But my 3.5 NPCs will still use the 3.5 traits. Other than PCs gaining the extra 2 ability score points, is this a huge problem?

Don't think so but didn't do it myself.

4. I don't want to use the PF skill list. I prefer the 3.5 longer skill list. So I would just use the Class Skills from the 3.5 classes. See any problem with this?

I did a custom list of skills for our group and there was no problem.

5. I could use the PF Skill points gained per level. Any problem with this?

Don't see why not. Though personally i boosted all the 2 to 4 skill points per level classes. But then I felt that was a problem with 3.5 as well.

6. I like the way PF handles how skill points are added to the list of class skills & cross class skills (giving +3 bonus to class skills). Does this make a PF character a lot better at doing skill checks? If I use this method, am I going to screwing up the 3.5 DC checks?

Better? No not really except after first level when they take a new class skill. No I don't think it would screw up skill checks since they tend to be for people with a few ranks in a skill anyways. All it does is let PF characters become skilled in a new skill to a decent level faster.

7. I would not use any PF Feats, spells, domains, or any other rules outside of the class specific abilities.

I think that would be a big mistake but it's your game. Since I think the PF version are better balanced.

8. I could use the PF Character Advancement and Level-Dependent chart to determine XP and when PCs gain Feats.

Would just mean more feats for all.

9. I would use the PF class hit points, BAB, and Saves per level.

I assumed as much by the first part of your post.

10. I could use the PF Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, but would it matter if I didn't? Not sure how much different they are in PF.

There isn't a lot different other than the cleric losing heavy armor which I agree with.

11. Getting the bonuses each level for choosing a Favored Class looks nice, but it looks like a more obscure rule that I'd have to keep up with. Plus it looks like it makes the PF classes even more powerful. Does it matter if I don't use that rule, or any reason why I should be using it?

It was put in place to keep up with later PrC's to make the core classes more attractive. Kicking it out would mean more people would jump to a PrC as soon as they could. Which to me defeats the point of using the PF classes.

12. I would use the PF class special abilities, but are there differences to the way any PF abilities work that are different from the 3.5 version that I need to be aware of? For example, some abilities are also Feats. I don't want to confuse myself when a PF PC uses an ability and it works different than my NPCs feat or ability.

Honestly to hard to answer, with out just going threw each book and checking. But yes I imagine there is a few issues like that.

13. I don't know a whole lot about PF. These are just things I got familiar with from browsing my book. But is there anything else I should consider in regards to cross-breeding the two editions? Should I not do it? It won't disappoint me if I don't do it. I'm just trying to improve the game for the players but at the same time keep it from causing me a headache in the long run.

Personally I would suggest switching to PFRPG and then updating the 3.5 stuff you like to fit PFRPG where it is needed. That's what I did and it was not all that much work. I have half of a 6ft tall book shelf of 3.5 stuff.

Just realize no matter what you do, you will be converting stuff. I as I mentioned would go with PFRPG and convert the rest to it. If not then I would say cherry pick the stuff you want from PFRPG and use it in 3.5 in other words make any changes across the board.

I think what you are trying to do will end up being frustrating but trying to have basically one set of rules for PC's and one for NPC's. For the short term it works, I have done it. Long term I think it would be to hard to keep track of both. Of course just my opinion of course.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Sorry Dark Mistress, I can't give you any XP.

It is worth noting that most of the base classes that started showing up in later 3.5 were more powerful than the core classes, and balance well with the PF classes - though many can now be recreated with the Archetypes in The Advanced Player's Guide. Before converting any PrCs or newer base classes I might want to take a look at the Archetypes first. A Drunken Master is a PrC for 3.X and an Archetype for APG.

The Auld Grump