Pathfinder 2E PF2 house-rules / variant rules

[MaskedGuy]

Yeah what you are describing is essentially making your own game hack or homebrew system rather than just house rules. Its valid route though, I know some people who run games in their own homebrew systems even if they never intend to publish them.

(but yeah, personally I really really dislike bounded accuracy, but I think you can sort of have similar effect in 2e just by using proficiency without level since AC range will be similar without level being applied to AC. Like archive of nethys has nice feature of altering monster stats to fit proficiency without level if you want to check how it would change bestiary monsters)

 

[dave2008]

Absolutely true, but its always a good idea to be aware of the Law of Unintended Consequences, and with a game that is tightly designed that becomes more and more likely. So you need to look at every change you make, see what places it impacts the system, and what that will be. And that becomes even more true when you're going as far as to try to hybridize three different (albeit related) game systems together. Both 4e and PF2e were/are relatively tightly designed; changes are liable to have ripple effects and you have to watch for those.

Which doesn't mean not to do it, it just means you need to be aware what you're biting off.

I agree to an extent. But if you have a mature group of players (like I do) and you design the house-rules together (like we do) I find that it is quite acceptable to handle those ripple effects on the fly. Make the change, see how it plays, and modify if needed, or get rid of the rule if it doesn't work. It has worked well for us.

That being said, my currently plan for changes is probably to great for that philosophy.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah what you are describing is essentially making your own game hack or homebrew system rather than just house rules. Its valid route though, I know some people who run games in their own homebrew systems even if they never intend to publish them.

Yes, that is where this is head I think. But not in the immediate future. I just keep coming back to it.

(but yeah, personally I really really dislike bounded accuracy, but I think you can sort of have similar effect in 2e just by using proficiency without level since AC range will be similar without level being applied to AC.

When we transitioned from 4e to 5e, BA is one of the things we fell in love with and I don't think we can every go back. We started using armor with DR in 1e, bloodied hit points in 4e, and now BA in 5e. Those things will be a part of any game we play going forward.

Like archive of nethys has nice feature of altering monster stats to fit proficiency without level if you want to check how it would change bestiary monsters)

I use AoN quite a bit, but I have never tried that function. I will check it out.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I agree to an extent. But if you have a mature group of players (like I do) and you design the house-rules together (like we do) I find that it is quite acceptable to handle those ripple effects on the fly. Make the change, see how it plays, and modify if needed, or get rid of the rule if it doesn't work. It has worked well for us.

Sure. But people need to be aware they're part of, effectively, one massive alpha test.

That being said, my currently plan for changes is probably to great for that philosophy.

It seemed so to me, but other people have far more expansive attitudes toward that scale of work than I do--and I've been involved in the design of at least two superhero games from the ground up.

 

[CapnZapp]

For my Abomination Vaults campaign:

Potent Potions
Healing Consumables generally heal 10 hp per item level, unless they provide some kind of additional bonus or benefit, when they generally heal 6 hp per item level (often rounded up to a multiple of 10). Also, you can draw a consumable as part of the action that activates it. You still need a free hand.

Example: A Lesser Elixir of Life now heals 30 hp (since it is a level 5 consumable with additional effects) instead of 3d6+6 hp. The item goes from 0.55 hp per gold piece and more importantly 5.5 hp per action taken (assuming you need three actions to draw and drink the elixir and then re-wield your weapon) to 1 hp per gold piece and 15 hp per action taken (assuming two actions needed: draw and drink, then re-wield).

Rationale: nobody ever purchased RAW healing potions; they're just too expensive, heals too little (with too much variability) and takes too long to use. Also, makes having a healbot Cleric less mandatory and saves on useless dice rolling.

Special Note: The Abomination Vaults campaigns caps magic item purchases to level 5, but not for consumables.

Hero Points
I hand out four (4) hero points each time the party ventures forth. This replaces unused previous hero points.

Rationale: Not gonna interrupt the game every hour to hand out a reward akin to how all the kids get a gold star thus making the reward meaningless. This gives the players an incentive to return to civilization despite there really being zero risk in just camping out in a cleaned-out section of the dungeon. And returning to civilization is where you can role-play against NPCs.

New ways to spend hero points:

• Spend 1 Hero Point to add +5 to any check, before you make that check. This is a fortune effect.
• Spend 1 Hero Point at the start of your turn to gain an additional action. You can only do this once per turn.
• Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to convert instant death into a critical hit.
• Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to grant one Hero Point to a creature of your choice. If it isn't used when you gain new Hero Points, it is lost.

Recall Knowledge
Everybody gets a free monster knowledge check at the start of an encounter. (More recall knowledge checks can be taken by spending actions as normal.)

This greatly reduces the impact from the thoroughly broken (not as in overpowered but the complete opposite) Recall Knowledge rules. Wasting combat actions for a ~50% shot at learning something that might or might not be useful just isn't thought through by Paizo. I'm not gonna come up with three or five instant facts just because Paizo says I must in various stupid feats, or come up with instant false facts just because Paizo says I must on rolling a critical failure. The developer who came up with that needs to lose their job.

My players simply accepted that in the rare cases when everybody failed the free check, they did the fight "blind". And nothing of importance was lost.

No Runes!
Runes cannot be purchased, only found through adventure. (So it's not quite no runes, just few runes, but that wouldn't make for a catchy title)

Enchantments are (re)-introduced as non-transferable bonuses providing the necessary basics the game expects: the bonuses to attack, damage, AC and saves. You can purchase a +1 sword just fine, it just doesn't have a "+1" thingy you can transfer elsewhere. Enchantments work exactly as runes except they can't be moved.

Note: this stocks the magic shoppes with the basics: the bonuses to "the big four": attack, damage, AC and saves. You still won't find a +1 Flaming sword to purchase. Loot it or craft it.

Putting the magical back into magic items. Specific magic weapons go from vendor trash you first strip for runes to actual desirable items to use. Runes themselves go from ho-hum to highly-sought after.

By the way, I combine this with High-Quality Weapons and Armor as written, simply because I dislike a world where everything is magical. Other than possibly making it harder to use Detect Magic to find loot this has very little practical impact on your campaign.

 

[CapnZapp]

We started using armor with DR in 1e[] Those things will be a part of any game we play going forward.

I believe we have discussed this before but to any new listeners:

Changing armor from AC to DR is a massive massive change to the core fundamentals of the D&D game. I do not believe any balance can be retained.

What I mean by this is of course not "the game becomes unplayable". Just that whatever balance the designers (of AD&D or PF1 or 5e or whatever) strived for is irretrievably lost.

Of course if you have a decent DM like Dave you're gonna find a new equilibrium where some classes and monsters get stronger and others weaker but the game still goes on and much fun is had. So I'm not saying "don't do it", only "don't even pretend the game is the same".

Have a good one

 

[CapnZapp]

IMHO, PF2 doesn't really need any major house rules. The design team has been pretty thorough, and there aren't any glaring holes in the game, as far as I can see. Every time some PF2 detractor pops up and starts complaining about this or that part of the game, I just shake my head and gather the arguments to show how much they are wrong.

This is not the thread, but I have criticized the RAW PF2 rules a lot. I have put forward cogent rational arguments, and very rarely have people disagreed in other ways than just instinctive "don't touch my game" ways.

Of course, I can't remember if you and I have had any altercations so please do not take this comment personally directed at you and I do not intend any evaluation on whatever posts you have made.

I just want to dispel the notion you're conveying here, that all criticism against PF2 is unfounded.

 

[John R Davis]

I just started a Forbidden Lands game. It uses a die system to track water, food, torches, etc. Here is how it works. A plentiful supply gives you a D12. At the end of the day (or determined point you must make a check) you roll the dice. On a 1 or 2 you drop a die size in supply. So, next check you are at D10 (D8, D6). If you run out of die, then you start getting hungry, thirsty, etc condition. At this point you need to buy more supplies or forage for more. In the case of torches, you need to spend time and have the materials and tools to make them.

So far, I am finding it to be one of my favorite supply tracking systems. It's pretty intuitive and easy to use. It allows you to make long distance travel and environment conditions matter, without all the complex minutia of older systems.

Yeah usage dice have been around for a decade or so now. They are great for tracking all sorts things ( charges left in a wand, ammunition, fate and threat etc).
Big fan

 

[CapnZapp]

I want a more bounded game numerically.

Have you explained why suggesting "play with proficiency without level" isn't doing it for you, Dave?

(I mean, it is such an obviously good solution that somebody gotta have made it, and still here we are. So I hesitate suggesting it since you clearly have a reason to keep looking. Maybe you could link to where you explain why PWL doesn't cut it for you?)

 

[CapnZapp]

@dave2008 Unfortunately I think PF2 is a poor fit for severely houseruled campaigns.

No scratch that, that comes off as not nearly strongly enough. Lemme try again:

Dave, I am supremely convinced Pathfinder 2 is the worst possible choice of every iteration of D&D I have ever come across during forty years of play to base any game that is more than superficially houseruled.​

Aaah... much better.

Put otherwise, its main selling point is the very finely calibrated balance. If that isn't the draw for you (and it clearly isn't, though I do feel compelled to point out you haven't really tried it RAW, have you?) then I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for your game.

Why? Because there are just so very many things about this game that only makes sense if the Sacred Paizo Balance™ is your end goal. There are literally hundreds of rule sentences and feats and whatnot that simply is useless clutter if it weren't for the fact they provide some miniscule tweak that supports this Sacred Paizo Balance™.

I would never play a game this complex and cluttery if all this complexity and clutter didn't serve its purpose (however little it may be).

 

[Philip Benz]

Cap

I just want to dispel the notion you're conveying here, that all criticism against PF2 is unfounded.

Cap, just to be clear, I do not claim that all criticism of PF2 is unfounded. Simply that my experience of running the game over 56 sessions so far (with PCs now at 12th level) has shown me that the game does work with the existing rules.

I have agreed with you that the medicine paradigm is unnecessarily complicated, but that its complexities don't really pose a problem for me, since the players have learnt how to use this system independant of any input from me, the DM, so we keep using it as written.

As far as other potential problems are concerned, we just deal with them as they come up. And I am not adverse to ruling in favor of greater gameplay options rather than adhering blindly to the RAW. The most important thing to me is the fun our group has around the table (or around the VTT, as we haven't yet got back to the tabletop).

As far as PF2 being the "worst possible choice" for a heavily homebrewed game, I just don't see it. As always, the proof is in the pudding, and we'd have to talk about a specific set of variant rules to be able to make any meaningful comments. This sort of blanket rejection doesn't seem to me like it's helping anyone.

 

[glass]

I only have two "generic" houserules for PF2:

• PCs get either an extra ancestry feat or a general feat at first level (started as an extra ancestry feat, because the ancestries felt a bit lightweight with only the herritage and one feat. Added the option to take a general feat instead because I homebrewed a level 1 general feat and then realised nobody could take it....).
• When making a Recall Knowledge check, players nominate which skill(s) will be used. If none of the skills they nominate are relevant, no roll is made and they get no info, but at least they do not risk crit-failing. This may not be strictly a houserule, since the rules for Recall Knowledge are somewhat vague on the actual proceedure, particularly with regard to IDing creatures (since the relevant skills depend on the creatures' keywords, and the players do not know which skills are appropriate until after someone successfully makes the check, they cannot make an informed decision about whether they should attempt they check with any given skill).

I also have a few setting rules for my homebrew setting, Pelhorin. I have fairly close equivalents in every system I use with that setting. The PF2 version looks like this:

Spoiler: Pelhorin PF2 setting rules

• Culture is separate from species (what PF2 calls Ancestry). Each player selects a culture, which determines things like starting language options, religious options, and weapon training feats (Ancestry-specific weapon training feats are not available unless they pertain to natural weapon that ancestry physically has.)
• Each character gets two languages for free: The automatic language for their culture, and the campaign language (the latter ensures that PCs can understand each other and most NPCs they meet without postulating a universal "Common" language, which Pelhorin does not have). Languages based on int bonus depend on culture, not ancestry.
• Each character gets [name of culture] Lore as a free trained lore skill.
• Each character gets one uncommon pick at character creation – this does not necessarily have to be something you can actually take at first level, so if you wanted to make sure you get teleport you could nominate it (although check the campaign is going to last long enough first). Other uncommon options need to be found or sought out in play. Character created at higher than first level get one extra pick per five levels. These picks do not automatically grant the item in question, just the ability to buy or select it at the appropriate time.

ETA:

• Elves are weird. Mechanically, this means they have the Plant and Fey traits as well as Humanoid and Elf. Also, they a partial exception to ancestry not determining languages: Elves do not get elven automatically, but they can always take it was one of their language picks even if it is not on their culture’s list.
• True Paladins do not worship gods, and are represented in PF2 by the Champion with the True Paladin class archetype (which takes out the deity references). The paladin cause is still available to normal (god worshipping) Champions, but they would not be referred to as "paladins" in-universe.

EDIT: I have been thinking about adding a houserule granting free Lore skills for regions in which a PC adventures for a a span of levels and/or a period of in-game time, but I have not worked out the details yet. Also, I remembered a couple more setting-specific rules (in the spoiler block).

_
glass.

 

[Philip Benz]

About Recall Knowledge checks...

When the PCs first see an adversary or a group of adversaries, I give them a free RK check. They don't have to choose a skill, since they're trying to recall anything they might have learnt about these critters. Instead, I tell them "make a religion/arcana/whatever check on one of your adversaries" and then I frame the knowledge they've gleaned in terms of past research, old stories around a campfire or barroom gossip they may have overheard.

Further checks cost actions. But IMHO it is inappropriate to make the PCs choose which skill they're using. When necessary, I make secret checks for them (I have a DM summary sheet with most of their relevant skills, so I don't have to ask them what their bonus is) but whenever possible I ask them to roll, just because players prefer rolling their own checks.

The RK paradigm in PF2 is ill-defined at best, so it seems logical to give them some information, even on a failed check. In that case, it's just general background info on the creature, no actual stats and so on. Successful checks will get them the most notorious of the critter's special attacks or weaknesses, and crit successes will get a better list of what the critter can do, or how it can be best attacked. Seems to work fairly well.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Here is a copy of our house rules. So far we have played 30+ sessions with them. Players are having great fun, and so far they have achieved the kind of game my players and I want. Our tables are a blast, and people must enjoy the game as I have players from the 80s and 90s still coming back for more. My players even read my 20-page guides for each campaign and work details into their backstory, I am a Blessed One DM!

I am sure some people will not like them, or not see what our table was going for (more OSR/gritty/slow healing). That said, I post them as an example for the OP, and I will not be replying to every nit-pick that some of the illustrious commenters will provide, especially the line-by-line reply I am not sure why certain parts are bolded or larger font below, it means nothing.

Uncommon/Rare Trait​

Anything with the Uncommon or Rare trait is usually not selectable. Exceptions will usually be spells or magical items given by the DM and specific ancestries for a campaign.

Ancestry / Heritage​

Players choose an Ancestry from the list provided for each campaign, as not all ancestries are available for every campaign. Descriptions of all the main ancestries follow these rules.

Ability Scores - Gradual Boosts​

This variant from the Gamemaster’s Guide giving boosts earlier but more slowly is used.

Classes / Archetypes​

Players can choose between a Free Archetype or Ancestral Paragon for their characters. Only one archetype or paragon path is permitted per character throughout its lifetime.

Classes - Divine Classes​

Divine character classes always venerate one main deity, even if this contradicts the class description. This includes Champions, Clerics, Druids, Oracles, & Rangers.

Skill - Investigation​

Investigation is an Intelligence skill, and it covers the Search and Investigate actions. Thus not tied to class/Perception.

Skill - Insight​

Insight is a Wisdom skill, and it covers the Sense Motive action. Thus not tied to class/Perception.

Skill - Crafting​

When a character selects Crafting, they must specify what specialty their skill refers to. Examples include alchemy, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, jewelry, scribing, brewing, and so on. Characters can take multiple instances of Crafting if they want to be able to craft multiple types of items. Additionally, crafting does not take 4 days, but rather takes time-based on the Earn Income chart to get to 50% completion.

Skill - Medicine / Treat Wounds​

Treat Wounds can only be used once per battle (this includes Battle Medicine), not every hour. If there is no encounter during a given day, it can be not used more than once per day.​

Skill Action - Identify Magic​

This action requires the use of read aura or similar spell. A critical failure means you cannot try to identify the magic again until you gain a level.

Feats - Uncommon​

Adopted Ancestry, Blood Component Substitution, Continual Recovery, Craft Anything, Inventor, Red Herring, That’s Odd​

Initiative - Reactions / Flat-footed​

When combat starts, combatants cannot take reactions until their first turn in combat. If they failed Perception checks against hidden foes, they are flat-footed until they have their first turn in the round.

Action - Attacks of Opportunity​

All PCs gain the Attack of Opportunity feat for any melee attacks they have Expert proficiency in. Creatures and NPCs gain the feat in a similar manner dependent on their level and role.

Action - Ready​

A Readied action that causes damage disrupts manipulate actions on a critical hit. Additionally, two-action activities can be readied, and this costs three actions instead of two.

Action - Counterspell​

Counterspell is available to all spellcasters as a 1st level class feat. Counterspelling does not require the exact spell to counter but instead requires a spell of the same school and level.

Condition - Wounded​

The Wounded condition is only removed by a full rest, reducing the score by 1 point per 24 hours. The Diehard feat allows two points per 24 hours instead.

Prepared Spellcasters - Spell Preparation​

Spellcasters that prepare spells (Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Witches) have the Flexible Caster archetype abilities without the loss of spell slots or cantrips. Spells can be heightened during casting freely. Conversely, prepared spellcasters need to learn spells in a similar way to a wizard. Prepared spellcasters do not start out able to select any spell from their spell lists. Instead, you start with a spellbook worth 10 sp or less which you receive for free and must study or pray to prepare your spells each day. The spellbook contains your choice of 10 cantrips and five 1st-level spells from your class’s spell list. Each time you gain a level, you add two spells to your spellbook, of any level you can cast. You can also use your spellcasting skill to add other spells to your book.

Spontaneous Spellcasters - Signature Spells​

Spontaneous spellcasters (Bards, Oracles, and Sorcerers) treat their spells as if all of their spells known are signature spells. Additionally, any bonus spells they get from bloodlines or other class features do not count towards their spells known.

Spells - Somatic Components​

Spells with somatic components need an empty free hand to cast.

Spells - Focus Spells & Healing​

Focus spells that provide healing can only be used on a creature once per day. This includes spells like Lay On Hands, Goodberry, Hymn of Healing, Life Boost, or any other spells that are similar.

Spells / Companions / Familars​

Any summoned creatures or otherwise controlled creatures must be discussed and created in Foundry with the GM prior to any session.

Spells - Rituals​

The primary caster of a ritual must have the ability to cast spells at a caster level appropriate for the ritual.

Spells - Spellstrike / Magus​

The Spellstrike action does not draw Attacks of Opportunity.

Magical Items - Stores / Frequency​

Magical items are far less common in Mazariim than other settings, and players should not expect to have the standard amount of Pathfinder 2E items. Balance issues will be handled by the GM. Magical items are almost never available for purchase in stores, the exceptions being low-level consumables and the most basic of magical weapons and armor.

Magical Items - Runes​

Runes used on magical item creation are not transferable or upgradeable. When a magical item is completed, it cannot be altered any further.

 

[glass]

Uncommon/Rare Trait​

Anything with the Uncommon or Rare trait is usually not selectable. Exceptions will usually be spells or magical items given by the DM and specific ancestries for a campaign.

How does this differ from RAW?

_
glass.

 

[dave2008]

Changing armor from AC to DR is a massive massive change to the core fundamentals of the D&D game. I do not believe any balance can be retained.

What you said is probably true; however, we do not change armor from AC to DR. Armor is still AC, but it also has DR. The DR only comes into play on Crits and when you reach 0 HP.

 

[dave2008]

Put otherwise, its main selling point is the very finely calibrated balance. If that isn't the draw for you (and it clearly isn't, though I do feel compelled to point out you haven't really tried it RAW, have you?) then I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for your game.

Yes, it has been suggested early in this thread to try RAW first. While I do agree with that stance if I want to play PF2. I think my ramblings here are more about creating my own game. I came to that conclusion through this discussion.

 

[dave2008]

Have you explained why suggesting "play with proficiency without level" isn't doing it for you, Dave?

(I mean, it is such an obviously good solution that somebody gotta have made it, and still here we are. So I hesitate suggesting it since you clearly have a reason to keep looking. Maybe you could link to where you explain why PWL doesn't cut it for you?)

Yes it has been suggested, and I would need to give it a try if we play PF2. However, I've realize I don't want to play PF2. but create my own game.

 

[JmanTheDM]

I like @CapnZapp 's recall knowledge house rule. my instinct is to slightly modify it to "allow" only those PC's with training in the relevant skill to make this free RK check. if you don't have a trained skill associated with that monster but instead want to use an "adjacent" once - eg, instead of Arcana, use Occultism, that costs an action. But I don't think that is totally necessary from what was written

Cheers,

J.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yes it has been suggested, and I would need to give it a try if we play PF2. However, I've realize I don't want to play PF2. but create my own game.

You might want to try the system anyway if you're going to work with it to 'develop' something new out of it, to better understand what you're altering.