Pathfinder 2E PF2 house-rules / variant rules

[Staffan]

For me debuffs seemed very weak, as in they rarely are successful (against anything but wimpy mooks of course). I wouldn't mind seeing a defense debuff at bloodied that might make spells more effective against severe/extreme enemies. I mean, bloodied was awesome and i'd like to see it make a return.

In my experience (as an 11th level primal sorcerer), debuffs are some of my main contributions – particularly to combats with stronger opponents. In many cases, they have an OK effect even if the opponent succeeds on their save.

 

[payn]

In my experience (as an 11th level primal sorcerer), debuffs are some of my main contributions – particularly to combats with stronger opponents. In many cases, they have an OK effect even if the opponent succeeds on their save.

Curious about that. In my game we got to level 5 and the wizard and druid were shut down to just a few spells that had annoying riders to slow the enemy down. Many spells simply did nothing at all. The math gave those spells about 10-20% chance. Also, Druid had intimidate which never worked for them so they gave up trying. Similar math. Just felt like spam cantrips and hope nobody gets crit down'd which was common since the enemy had very good chance of scoring crits on a regular basis.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Curious about that. In my game we got to level 5 and the wizard and druid were shut down to just a few spells that had annoying riders to slow the enemy down. Many spells simply did nothing at all. The math gave those spells about 10-20% chance. Also, Druid had intimidate which never worked for them so they gave up trying. Similar math. Just felt like spam cantrips and hope nobody gets crit down'd which was common since the enemy had very good chance of scoring crits on a regular basis.

Did you fight a lot of solo monsters?

 

[payn]

Did you fight a lot of solo monsters?

In AV solos came up often.

 

[kenada]

Sounds like another reason not to use level +3 or level +4 opponents very often. It’s a shame that’s so much a thing in APs. Hopefully future ones will be smarter about how encounters are designed.

 

[payn]

Sounds like another reason not to use level +3 or level +4 opponents very often. It’s a shame that’s so much a thing in APs. Hopefully future ones will be smarter about how encounters are designed.

My guess is that this was a side effect of mega dungeon play. Though maybe all APs are like that?

 

[kenada]

My guess is that this was a side effect of mega dungeon play. Though maybe all APs are like that?

Having not run any of the 2e APs, I’m just going by what people say about them. However, I wouldn’t expect a megadungeon to be full of level +3 and +4 creatures. That just strikes me as very tedious if the expectation is that you’re going to fight most of them. Even if you can find friends or allies, that still seems like a bit much to me. I think the approach discussed here of using more and lower level creatures would be more sensible for a megadungeon.

 

[Staffan]

Curious about that. In my game we got to level 5 and the wizard and druid were shut down to just a few spells that had annoying riders to slow the enemy down. Many spells simply did nothing at all. The math gave those spells about 10-20% chance. Also, Druid had intimidate which never worked for them so they gave up trying. Similar math. Just felt like spam cantrips and hope nobody gets crit down'd which was common since the enemy had very good chance of scoring crits on a regular basis.

At 5th, I think my main "spam" debuff was fear. I can't recall if I had gotten slow yet, but it's really good against individually powerful monsters. Giving up two of my actions for slow that will cost the enemy one of their actions is a good trade, considering I have about three allies who also get three actions each per round. Level 5-6 is also rough for casters, because you're really feeling your proficiency lagging (martials get weapon proficiency increase at 5th and casters get casting proficiency increase at level 7).

This is, however, one area where spontaneous casting is better than prepared casting. If the situation calls for it, I can cast slow round after round, but if I were a wizard I'd probably only prep one. And if we're fighting mooks, well, that's when the fireballs start flying (well, waterballs in my case. And now at higher levels, cones of cold.).

Another meta thing I've noticed is that when you're fighting "bosses", it's fairly common that they're fiends. Fiends often have magic resistance, giving them +2 or so to their already beefy saves, so even spells with decent effects on a successful save often fizzle. But do you know what's good against fiends and undead? Holy water. While holy water only deals 1d6 damage, it also triggers weaknesses against Good damage in fiends which can be substantial. And even a miss deals splash damage.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In my experience (as an 11th level primal sorcerer), debuffs are some of my main contributions – particularly to combats with stronger opponents. In many cases, they have an OK effect even if the opponent succeeds on their save.

The problem with debuffs in PF2e is that they're strong, but subtle; they tend to do some sliding around of numbers in areas where you only get to do a little bit, and where the critical/succeed/fail/fumble process is nontrivial (especially the first three), but because of how swingy a D20 is, it can not feel like there's much happening there.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And yeah, that can be pretty much a nonstarter if you're fighting all solos, especially uphill ones.