Phantasmal Killer and Spellcraft

[lukko]

Here is the situation, in the last session a pc failed both his saves against phantasmal killer, but the dm argued that spellcraft and/or arcane sight can still save him, quoting the rules

[h=5]Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)[/h] Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Phantasmal Killer

[....]
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
[...]
The target first gets a Will Save to recognize the image as unreal. [...]

.

Given that phantasmal killer is an illusion (disbelief), and in the text of the spell there's nothing that contradicts the general rules of illusion the dm argued that if you succeed the spellcraft check you have the proof that the phantasmal killer isn't real and you don't have to save or at least you should gain a bonus on your saving throw, but the party (especially the player) wasn't sure of the interpretation.

So the question is, what do you think the raw answer is? and how would you have ruled if you were the dm? is there an official answer to this question?

 

[Nagol]

Spellcraft doesn't provide proof; success means the PC has a strong well-founded opinion. Despite what my professional peers may believe there is a difference between the two!

If a spellcraft identification was successful (i.e. the caster was in sensory range and the skill check was successful), I'd probably give a circumstance bonus to the saving throw, but remember, the victim is facing his worst fear and that's sort of distracting.

I'd treat Arcane Sight similarly if the Spellcraft roll is made to detect the school of magic.

 

[RangerWickett]

Phantasmal Killer and other one-hit kills are kinda mean. So I say give it to him, and let him be stunned for a round as his mind reconciles at the last moment that, wait, that ain't real, so how can it be killing me?

 

[Nagol]

Also note the spell can kill the original caster, and he certainly is in a position to know it's an illusion!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

He failed two saves already. He's dead.

If this were another category of spell -- and it wouldn't be hard to refluff this as ice clutching a character's heart or his soul being chased away, or whatever -- this wouldn't even be an issue.

Two saves failed. He doesn't need more.

 

[Ramaster]

If he makes the spellcraft check, then I would rule that the illusion can't kill him (he certainly knows it is an illusion). Give the player "Improved Evasion" against that spell. With that I mean, no dmg on a successful save, 3d6 + caster lvl on a fail.

That's kinda elegant.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If he makes the spellcraft check, then I would rule that the illusion can't kill him (he certainly knows it is an illusion). Give the player "Improved Evasion" against that spell. With that I mean, no dmg on a successful save, 3d6 + caster lvl on a fail.

That's kinda elegant.

The spell can kill its caster, who knows it's an illusion.

This thread is a bunch of solutions in search of a problem.

 

[Particle_Man]

It could even be "You detect that the Wizard casts an illusion. By a coincidence, the thing you fear most in the world reaches for your heart and kills you, so you will never know what illusion that Wizard was casting."

 

[lukko]

I reopen this topic only because i've found an official faq that deals with this problem, just in case it can help someone else.

Q
In a recent game we began wondering if the arcane sight
spell lets you see illusions, glyphs of warding, and other
kinds of magical traps. We agreed that the spell would
reveal the auras from glyphs, symbols, and most other
magical traps, but not see an aura around the illusion of a
door, floor, or creature.
A
It’s correct that the arcane sight spell won’t automatically
allow you to look right through an otherwise opaque figment,
such as an illusory door, floor, or wall. Any active illusion,
however, has a magical aura that divination spells such as
detect magic or arcane sight can reveal. In the case of arcane
sight, you know immediately if anything you can see has a
magical aura, and you know what that aura’s power is (as
explained in the detect magic spell description). You also
immediately know the aura’s location. If what you’re looking
at happens to be a figment, you do not know it’s a figment. You
can, however, make a Spellcraft check (making the check
doesn’t require an action from you) to determine the aura’s
school. If the check succeeds, you know that the aura is from
the illusion school, but you cannot tell its subschool (it could be
a figment, glamer, pattern, phantasm, or shadow).
Looking at an illusion with arcane sight counts as
interacting with it, however, and if the illusion in question
allows a saving throw to disbelieve, you can immediately make
a saving throw. If you have identified the aura’s school as an
illusion, you have grounds to find the illusion’s reality
suspicious, and you get a +4 bonus on the saving throw (since
you know it’s some kind of illusion). If you make a successful
saving throw to disbelieve a figment or phantasm, then you can
see through it, although the figment or phantasm remains
visible as a faint outline (see the discussion of the illusion
school in Chapter 10 of the PH).

Apparently, you have a +4 bonus on your first saving throw (not on the fortitude save, if you fail the will save) if you identify the school of phantasmal killer aura with arcane sight, nothing more. It doesn't say nothing abot spellcraft but at this point i'm not sure spellcraft can help you against the phantasmal killer (probably not).

The spell can kill its caster, who knows it's an illusion.

The caster does not see the monster created by his own spell. He doesn't expect or has way to know if the spell will be turned against him, he only see a vague shape and then suddenly a horrible monster appear in front of him. It could be another phantasmal killer or a real monster for all he knows.

 

[billd91]

Phantasmal Killer and other one-hit kills are kinda mean. So I say give it to him, and let him be stunned for a round as his mind reconciles at the last moment that, wait, that ain't real, so how can it be killing me?

Phantasmal killer really is more than a one-hit kill. It's a two-hit kill, and those two hits are against different saves. The spell is already stacked to allow the target to survive.