[PHB] Divine Favor and Righteous Might Official Spell Changes

[rangerjohn]

I am of the opinion that the entire concept of Polymorph/Shapechange is intrisincally incompatible with play balance of any kind. If you want to make the situation better, axe them. Axe the druid, while you're at it.

Form-altering spells should be form-specific. You could get Orcform at low levels, Ogreform at midlevels and finally, Dragonform somewhere around level 20. You want to pop into a Solar, then? Tough luck, research it yourself, munchikin.

Sounds like too much like a video game to me.

 

[DreamChaser]

Oh, and before you think I'm over reacting. They just nerfed the only spells my 20th level cleric used besides heal, harm and miracle. Everything else was already surpassed by magic items.

And you have just hit the reason the spells needed to be nerfed. If they are so much better in every way than ever other spell, then they are too powerful.

And if you feel this way, then don't play a cleric. JMHO

DC

 

[hong]

Ok, there goes any reason to have straight cleric. I see absolutely no reason now to go above 15th as a cleric now. Maybe not even that high. If you are not going to be any better in combat then someone with the items. And you'll be beat out the wazoo by the mage in spells. I guess were back to the cleric being the medic. Oh joy! If the only reason to have a cleric around is heal, why bother. I am now seeing the appeal of the low magic games, if the items are going to define the characters, you might as well be a Wiz1/Cle1/Fighter 18 and use the items.

 

[Hypersmurf]

They should definitely change all the prot X except evil to say "just like evil, except X".

Well, they already do say that.

It's just that the 'except' part is all wrong.

-Hyp.

 

[rangerjohn]

I am seriously considering it. When the only thing he bringing to table that cannot be accomplished another way is healing... A thing to consider, I would not know what spells to replace those with. It is not that they are so powerful, but that the rest are obselete. I guess I will stop playing clerics, heck I may stop playing in that group period. I'm spending most of my time playing clean up for the mage as it is. It's not just that campaign either, the DM likes to give the wizard player a bang weapon. At low levels its a wand of magic missles, it just escalates from there.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And Hong, behave.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Marshall]

You Took It!

I'm Calling Interpol!!!!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I am seriously considering it. When the only thing he bringing to table that cannot be accomplished another way is healing...

I understand that you're venting because you have a high-level cleric whose favorite tactics have just been nerfed. Nevertheless, I am going to try and address your post.

Basically, I don't understand how you viewed the cleric's place before this nerf. You say that the only thing a cleric brings to the table that can't be accomplished some other way is healing, and yet to me that seems like the way it's always been. The only difference is that, with the spells that have now been nerfed, the cleric could also outshine the fighter in his own bailiwick. Now, the cleric retains his personal area of expertise--healing (and fighting the undead, I'd say,) while his ability to completely trivialize the fighter is reduced. And I say reduced, because with full plate armor, a medium BAB, and buff spells he's still a decent melee fighter, if not the best melee fighter in the group, which he was never supposed to be in the first place.

Really, any other class can make the same argument (I can only do one thing uniquely well, everything else can be accomplished by someone else as well.) Fighter? He fights. Any other skill he has, say by putting skill points into Intimidate, can be done better by the bard or rogue. Rogue? He's a skill man. In melee even with sneak attacks, he's no match for the Fighter. The wizard? He's got the Item Creation thing down. He also does boom spells (though the Sorcerer is better for that,) and has a good selection of utility spells (though the cleric and bard are no slouches in this department).

In the end, the spells in question allowed the Cleric to dominate in melee, which was supposed to be the Fighter's job. Now it can be again.

It is not that they are so powerful, but that the rest are obselete.

If you mean the animal buffs, then certainly. Do you have other examples of obsolete cleric spells at high level? I'd think spells such as Spell Immunity, Flame Strike, and Destruction would never get old...

I'm spending most of my time playing clean up for the mage as it is. It's not just that campaign either, the DM likes to give the wizard player a bang weapon. At low levels its a wand of magic missles, it just escalates from there.

This sounds like a DM problem, not a Cleric problem. :\

 

[rangerjohn]

Oh, one other thing I am the fighter. Cleric 20/Barbarian 5 in this case. But its really some variant which ever game is played with this DM. Your point about the cleric is well taken. I wasn't pleased with him before, 3 or 4 spells out of list hardly seemed viable. This lowering of the list just emphasized it more. The problem is not so much a nerfing of the spells, but there being no decent alternative to replace them with. Truth be known I used the spells but didn't really benefit from them. Well other than being large, what's really bad is there is just that more temptation to just harm something to death.

 

[Darklone]

You Took It!

I'm Calling Interpol!!!!

I can really imagine hong having this piccy in his sleeping room

I like that they changed it... and houseruling Animal Growth to similar values shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I'd love to see ALL size changes about halved. The table in the MM simply doesn't make sense.