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[PHB] Divine Favor and Righteous Might Official Spell Changes

jodyjohnson said:
So could you list the rules with huge holes in them?
I can think of a couple (ignoring the many that upset balance):

Protection from Evil / Good / Law / Chaos protect unequally against summoned monsters.

Kneeling / Sitting has a game effect on AC, but the action type is not defined anywhere. Is it free, MEA, or ?

Mind Blank vs True Seeing. This seems to be in need of clarification.

I'm sure there are many others. One just needs to search the rules forum a while.
 

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Divine favor needed that restriction. +6 to hit and damage that stacks with absolutely everything was a little ridiculous for a first level spell. +3 is fine, and still really good.

The change to Righteous might is ok... I'm not sure it needed to be nerfed so much though. The damage reduction I can understand... 15/evil is pretty rough... I don't car what others say, I don't see a lot of people using evil weapons. Sure there are *some* but most? Not in my experience. +8 strength is a lot... +6 woulda been fine... keep in mind that you get +4 strength as a 1st level barbarian using rage, and that's invokable as a free action.

I don't see Mind Blank and True Seeing as interacting at all. That's like asking how Melf's Acid Arrow and Status interact...

They should definitely change all the prot X except evil to say "just like evil, except X".

Complete books are not on the same level as the PHB.. not everyone uses Complete Divine, but everyone uses the PHB.

Yes, persistant spell is stupid and should not exist (or if it does, it should just multiply the duration by 10 or something similar that maintains the differences in spell durations). But, one again, persistant spell isn't core, and therefor isn't nearly as big of an issue. In fact... where is persistant spell even printed in 3.5? Is it Forgotten Realms? 'Cause I think we all know the thing the Realms have Forgotten is balance.

-The Souljourner
 

I guess my key word there was "huge".

The whole Polymorph/Wildshape thing is the only other mid level ability that stands out (plus PAO and Shapechange at the top end).

Fix Poly and you fix Natures Favor (Animal shaped Druid casts on self for the double dip).

See other thread.

Persistant spell is still optional in my book since it's tied strongly to the Realms.
 
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jodyjohnson said:
I guess my key word there was "huge".

The grappling issue is huge, so is tripping. I might change the word huge to chronic.

Fix Poly and you fix Natures Favor (Animal shaped Druid casts on self for the double dip).

Not really. Nature's Favor is stupid even if just cast on a companion. I can Greater Magic Fang one attack to give it +1/4 caster levels or I can cast one spell to give a +1/2 caster level bonus to every attack's hit and damage. In addition to Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth....it stacks with everything short of Prayer.

It's the same issue as with cleric's DF except that the progession is even faster and the cap higher (+10 IIRC). This from a spell that was in the latest supplement. I won't even mention Quill Blast.

Wotc's decisions lately leave me baffled.
 

thorian said:
...Kneeling / Sitting has a game effect on AC, but the action type is not defined anywhere. Is it free, MEA, or ?...

Recently, I was perusing the Rules of the Game articles on WotCs website. Skip should be nominated for an award for this article series. It's absolutely brilliant - it's clear, concise and very detailed.

In one of his past articles on Movement, Skip clarifies the roles of kneeling, sitting and standing from prone, even getting up from a chair. He did so under the following section:

"Stand Up from Prone: Use this action to get up when you're lying on the ground. This does not count as movement, but you're pretty darn close to defenseless when regaining your feet, so standing up provokes attacks of opportunity. Getting to your feet when seated on the ground is just as difficult as getting up from a prone position and also requires a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. If you're kneeling on the ground, getting up takes some time, but it doesn't make you vulnerable, so you use a move action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Getting up from a chair is a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity if the chair is fairly high; otherwise it's just like getting up from a prone position."

Based on the above, I would deduce that sitting or kneeling is a Move Action, presumably because you are doing so carefully to avoid injuring yourself. Reversing his logic, sitting would induce AoOs while kneeling would not.

As for falling prone, in the PH pg 144, falling prone IN YOUR SQUARE is a free action. Based on the RoG articles, I'd say there is another way you could rule on it for more realism.

Falling prone:

An action the can be executed during movement, costing 5 ft of movement (and thus can be executed as a 5 ft step).

I believe this is a better ruling for falling prone, since that act of moving doesn't require you to move your full speed. Dropping prone should cost 5 ft of movment and be executed as part of movement. It then fits in with all the other rules on Hampered Movement in Difficult Terrain, Obstacles, etc. As for other complications:

- Dropping prone in Difficult Terrain (see Hamprered Movement) would cost double the movement, in this case 10 ft of movement, to drop prone. No one wants to hit their head on a rocky plateau when they dive for cover!

- As such, dropping prone as a 5 ft step when your movement is Hampered would not be possible, as per the rules on Hampered Movement.

I encourage you to think about reading Skip's articles - they really do a wonderful job clarifying those "tough" rulings, and in the process make it easier to make those types of calls on the fly.
 
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ruleslawyer said:
Yet they kept divine power as is...
Nah, divine power isn't really broken. The +6 Str is an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with other buff spells or items. The temp hp are nice, but don't really make that huge a difference. What's more useful is the BAB adjustment, and both div favor and righteous might can outdo that at the top end.

PS. I am gratified to see that it only took WotC 4 years to figure out that divine favor was broken, and 1 year to figure out the same for 3.5 righteous might. It fills me with confidence that the future of the game is in good hands.
 
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re

Nice change. I haven't had a cleric use the horrendous combination of Divine Power Divine Favor and Righteous Might because they have been too busy healing. I have seen 15th level Righteous Might in action, and it is sickeningly powerful. I gave out a pair or gauntlets that allowed a Paladin character to cast Righteous Might one time a day as a 15th level caster, he was nigh undefeatable against any foe without an evil-aligned weapon. He tore through hordes of monsters only rarely in danger from parties with an evil weapon or outsiders with evil equivalent weapons. 15/evil DR is definitely too powerful.
 

Ok, there goes any reason to have straight cleric. I see absolutely no reason now to go above 15th as a cleric now. Maybe not even that high. If you are not going to be any better in combat then someone with the items. And you'll be beat out the wazoo by the mage in spells. I guess were back to the cleric being the medic. Oh joy! If the only reason to have a cleric around is heal, why bother. I am now seeing the appeal of the low magic games, if the items are going to define the characters, you might as well be a Wiz1/Cle1/Fighter 18 and use the items.
 

I am of the opinion that the entire concept of Polymorph/Shapechange is intrisincally incompatible with play balance of any kind. If you want to make the situation better, axe them. Axe the druid, while you're at it.

Form-altering spells should be form-specific. You could get Orcform at low levels, Ogreform at midlevels and finally, Dragonform somewhere around level 20. You want to pop into a Solar, then? Tough luck, research it yourself, munchikin.
 

Oh, and before you think I'm over reacting. They just nerfed the only spells my 20th level cleric used besides heal, harm and miracle. Everything else was already surpassed by magic items.
 

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