PHB2 Classes simply better?

[Lauberfen]

I agree that PHB2 are more smoothly written, and perhaps easier to play. Shaman's spirits stand out as a major hassle to adjudicate (problems every session for us, mostly because the current DM [we rotate] isn't happy with the simplest, RAW, just a conjuration + some extras version).

The paladin is a bit gappy. My first character is a dragonborn paladin (helps a bit) who's strength and charisma, but is multiclassing into warlord a fair bit. Works really well. Paladin level 2 utilities are very poor.

 

[DMingNicholas]

I think the curve goes towards being more mechanically complex. PHB1 classes are very simple to understand and play (although they might lack in presentation). They are good for introducing people to the game. PHB2 classes just have more bits to play with. A savvy player might squeeze more power out of a PHB2 class, but I don't think it is by much. The power source books are also evening out that power gap. If the monk is any indication, PHB3 will have even more complexity and versatility than the other two.

 

[Josep]

Paladins generally rank pretty low on the defender totem pole (or even the class totem pole) for a variety of reasons. So the fact that the warden compares favorably to paladins isn't too surprising: I think the issue is the paladin, not the warden.

The comparison of a warden against a fighter or shielding swordmage is much more balanced IMO.

 

[Saeviomagy]

IIRC, the warden's marking is that he marks all adjacent foes, correct?

Tactically, that's not always going to be the best thing to do - you're actually aiming to keep the entire party going as long as possible. If the defender runs out of surges, the day is over, just the same as if the strikers do.

Additionally the fact that the paladin can apply his mark at range is a big plus for him being an effective defender. He's probably the best defender for controlling artillery.

Next up: granting cover is good, unless you already have cover. And a lot of the time your back-row characters WILL already have cover from the front-rowers. So a bit of a mixed bag there.

Finally: as far as I recall paladins are still the only class that can pass their surges to another character.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

I adore the fighter and warden. They are well designed and fun to play.
And though I don't play a swordmage, I see that it is well designed too.

I think that most PHB 1 & PHB 2 classes are competitive and fun.

However, the Paladin and Warlock stand out like sore thumbs.

The Warlock (striker) has too many 1d6 & 2d6 damage spells.

And the Paladin seems the only defender whose class seems poorly designed.

STR needed for oppourtunity attacks (your MARK)
DEX: needed for feats (DAMAGE)
CON: needed for surges and feats (DAMAGE and AC)
WIS: needed for Lay On Hands per day (LOH)
CHA: needed for mark (MARK)

When I build a paladin, I must ask myself
"Which two features should I give up?"
"Which one feature should I never increase?"
No other defender loses class features based on stats.

I'm not sure how much Divine Power can help.

 

[UltimaGabe]

And a lot of the time your back-row characters WILL already have cover from the front-rowers.

...Do creatures grant cover in 4e? If so, is there a chance of hitting the person in front of your target?

I was under the impression that cover from creatures and firing into melee and all of those headaches were done away with.

 

[Kordeth]

...Do creatures grant cover in 4e? If so, is there a chance of hitting the person in front of your target?

I was under the impression that cover from creatures and firing into melee and all of those headaches were done away with.

Your own allies do not grant enemies cover, but an enemy's allies do grant other enemies cover. There's no way to accidentally hit the cover instead of your target, though.

 

[DracoSuave]

STR needed for oppourtunity attacks (your MARK)
DEX: needed for feats (DAMAGE)
CON: needed for surges and feats (DAMAGE and AC)
WIS: needed for Lay On Hands per day (LOH)
CHA: needed for mark (MARK)

Martial training erases the STR issue.
Plate proficiency/enfeebling strike erases the AC issue.
Paladins start with more feats than anyone else, erasing the surges issue.
This leaves needing Str, Wis, and Cha.
Of these, Str is only important if it's your primary, otherwise you can do without, and Wis only serves one class feature, and not your most important ability in terms of defense.

So, if you focus on Charisma and either Strength or Wisdom, you can get by quite nicely without a lot of the problems people seem to feel are there.

The same argument could be used for Heavy Blade Fighters who 'need' Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, or Swordmages who allegedly 'need' Str, Dex, Con, and Int.

That said, I want to see where Divine Power takes the paladin before signing judgement completely. Virtuous Paladin? More Strength powers? Or a Wisdom based one?

 

[FireLance]

And the Paladin seems the only defender whose class seems poorly designed.

STR needed for oppourtunity attacks (your MARK)
DEX: needed for feats (DAMAGE)
CON: needed for surges and feats (DAMAGE and AC)
WIS: needed for Lay On Hands per day (LOH)
CHA: needed for mark (MARK)

When I build a paladin, I must ask myself
"Which two features should I give up?"
"Which one feature should I never increase?"
No other defender loses class features based on stats.

I'm not sure how much Divine Power can help.

There are a few workarounds if you're playing a Charisma paladin. Melee Training (Charisma) reduces the need for Strength. Wisdom doesn't need to be exceptionally high unless you're the primary healer for the party or there are so many party members that the primary healer needs additional support, so one or two ability increases could be assigned to Dexterity or Constitution. Blade Opportunist has relatively low prerequisites, and with Melee Training, Heavy Blade Opportunity becomes less of a must-have. A paladin starting with Str 13, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16 could have Heavy Blade Opportunity at Epic tier.

 

[DracoSuave]

Wisdom doesn't need to be exceptionally high unless you're the primary healer for the party or there are so many party members that the primary healer needs additional support

I'll be honest, if your group needs a healer (read: Leader) probably a character with touch-range daily-resource heals that suck up his own healing surges are probably not the best way to get that 'healbot' going.