PHB2 Feat Retraining question

[Donovan Morningfire]

A question came up in the D&D game I play in regarding the retraining rules from PHB2, most notably those regarding feats.

Could a character opt to retrain one of the feats they gain from their 1st class level?

Scenario 1: Could a 1st level fighter opting to "re-train" his Shield Proficiency feat upon reaching 2nd level to gain some other feat that he qualifies for at 1st level, such as Dodge or Endurance or Toughness or Weapon Focus?

Scenario 2: Could someone multiclassing into Ranger at 4th level "re-train" Track for a different feat that they'd qualify for as a Whatever 3/Ranger 1? (I know Unearthed Arcana's Urban Ranger swapped Track for Urban Track, which would be similar to this scenario.)

Scenario 3: Could a straight rogue "re-train" her Armor Proficiency (light) at a later level for something more useful in terms of feats, again provided she'd qualify for it at 1st level? Like say Mobility if she'd taken Dodge at 1st level?

Thanks

 

[frankthedm]

Most of those are not feats, but class features.

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

No "Shield Proficiency feat", the fighter is just proficient with the shield.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Most of those are not feats, but class features.

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

No "Shield Proficiency feat", the fighter is just proficient with the shield.

True, but it can also be argued the other way, especially given how several other d20 games say characters get X proficiency feats at 1st level in this class. Also could be viewed as it taking up less space to say "proficient with X,Y, and Z" instead of listing out all the various proficiency feats (as was done with Star Wars d20).

Question was sent to Sage Advice over on the WotC site, so I'll post the "official" answer once I get it. Most just interested to see what the folks here say, since our DM is mulling it over.

 

[Caliban]

I wouldn't allow you to retrain a "free", predetermined feat gained from your class. Too easy to abuse.

 

[frankthedm]

True, but it can also be argued the other way, especially given how several other d20 games say characters get X proficiency feats at 1st level in this class.

So you are saying a different games rules have bearing on D&D?

 

[IanB]

No retraining for specific bonus feats gained through class features (e.g. ranger's Track), and for non-specified bonus feats I would only allow retraining to one of the other options for the feat (which is probably already in the rules.)

 

[GorTeX]

IIRC, you can only retrain something if you could still be a 'legal' character. So a Fighter could not retrain his shield prof. nor could a Ranger retrain out of Track. However, a Ranger could retrain to change his combat style from TWF to ranged and a Wizard could change (or gain) his specialty schooll (as well as his prohibited schools).

You can retrain the choices you made as you leveled (which bonus feat you took, skill ranks, optional class features, etc), but you can't retrain something you had no choice of when you took the class (barbarian's rage, Wizard's Scribe scroll, armor/weapon profs, etc). And you can only choose things you could have choosen originally (Ranged or TWF for combat style, not some other feats for a Ranger, for example)

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

So you are saying a different games rules have bearing on D&D?

Based on an individua DM's perception of d20 as a whole, yes they could. Not saying I disagree, but just playing devil's advocate here. Personally, being that most of my d20-based experience are games outside of D&D, I'm rather used to seeing weapon and armor proficiencies listed as a block of individual feats. A prospective DM coming from that background could view it in exactly the same light, as opposed to a DM that's been playing D&D3e since it's release and played very little of other d20 games.

Dunno if my DM posts or lurks here (he tends to hold a low opinion of message boards in general after visiting the train wreck that were the WotC D&D boards), but he's decided there's some merit in the idea.

BTW, for the reason this question was asked in the first place, the fighter in the group, a spiked chain expert (aka a trip monkey), wants to re-train/drop his Shield Proficiency (with Tower Shield as well) to get Weapon Focus (spiked chain).

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

IIRC, you can only retrain something if you could still be a 'legal' character. So a Fighter could not retrain his shield prof. nor could a Ranger retrain out of Track. However, a Ranger could retrain to change his combat style from TWF to ranged and a Wizard could change (or gain) his specialty schooll (as well as his prohibited schools).

You can retrain the choices you made as you leveled (which bonus feat you took, skill ranks, optional class features, etc), but you can't retrain something you had no choice of when you took the class (barbarian's rage, Wizard's Scribe scroll, armor/weapon profs, etc). And you can only choose things you could have choosen originally (Ranged or TWF for combat style, not some other feats for a Ranger, for example)

Actually, there are options in a few books, PHB2 and EtCR that immediately come to mind, where characters can "re-train" what are viewed as innate class abilities.

Paladins can drop the mount to gain a charging smite, Rogues can drop Uncanny Dodge at 4th level to get an ability to inflict a hefty AC penalty to a flanked foe, Clerics can drop Domain abiltiies and Turn Undead for some pretty powerful tricks (such as EtCR Destroy Undead, which the dwarf cleric proved last session can be utterly devastating to undead with low hit points). So the precident is there to retrain innate class abilities.

 

[Piratecat]

I'd rule no.