Pimping the Paladin's Ride

I respectfully disagree with you Canis. You're the one who's wrong.

A young marmoset has no sentient willpower. Instinct alone guides it, it will never try to overcome its instincts. AFAIAC, your animal examples are irrelevent. The paladin's mount is not merely an animal, to give in to its instincts. It's a unique creature of both instinct and sentient will.

But enough of this. I don't think I'm going to convince anyone here, nor be convinced, so I think it's best if we just agree to disagree.

Good gaming.
 

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Actually, LP, you convinced me - but then, I agreed with you from the get-go and find the opposte opinion baffling, to say the least. :D So maybe you didn't so much convince me as write what I would have written.
 



Lord Pendragon said:
The specific moralities I am gifting the warhorse with are the moralities of the warhorse's alignment. Lawful-Good, you'll remember.

Where do you see that the paladin's warhorse is LG?

It comes from a celestial realm and serves a paladin in fighting against evil but has the characteristics of a normal base mount except as specified in the modifications for a paldin's mount. The mount characteristics do not specify a change in alignment.

And a warhorse as an animal has "—Alignment: Always neutral."

From the srd

Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see below). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.
Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.


THE PALADIN’S MOUNT
The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.
A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

Paladin Level Bonus HD Natural Armor Adj. Str Adj. Int Special
5th–7th +2 +4 +1 6 Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws
8th–10th +4 +6 +2 7 Improved speed
11th–14th +6 +8 +3 8 Command creatures of its kind
15th–20th +8 +10 +4 9 Spell resistance

Paladin’s Mount Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
Natural Armor Adj.: The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.
Str Adj.: Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.
Int: The mount’s Intelligence score.
Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically.
Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.
Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar (see Familiars).
Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
Share Spells: At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount.
The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).
Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.
Improved Speed (Ex): The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.
Command (Sp): Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.
Spell Resistance (Ex): A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.
 

Voadam said:
Where do you see that the paladin's warhorse is LG?
Hrm. I had always thought it was self-evident, but re-reading it you're right to point out that nowhere is it mentioned in the paladin's mount rules.

I suppose I am extrapolating from the fact that the paladin's mount is sent from Heaven, and that the cohort rules require any cohort to a paladin to be Lawful-Good. Hence it seems (to me) only natural that a paladin's mount must in fact also be Lawful-Good.

But although this is a House Rule, it doesn't really change my stance. You could rule the paladin's mount Chaotic-Evil, and it wouldn't change the fact that, IMO, its sentient will could overrule its instincts.
Canis said:
LP,

Perhaps I was a bit strident in my last post.

One day I will learn to keep the lab and my gaming further apart. No good tends to come of their association

My apologies.
No apologies necessary, Canis. :) I was far more aggrivated by a poster much earlier in the thread. I merely got to the point, coincidentally after your post, where I felt that I'd pretty much defined my stance as well as possible, and further discussion wasn't going to convince anyone if what I'd already posted could not. ;)
 
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Voadam said:
Where do you see that the paladin's warhorse is LG?

Well, we are still discussing a paladin who's taken the Celestial Mount feat, are we not?

(Or have I mixed up my threads again?)

That feat applies the Celestial template to the mount, and the Celestial template says:

SRD said:
Alignment: Always good (any).

Since it can be any good, it makes the most sense for a Paladin's mount to be LG, but NG is probably acceptable, as well.
 

Lord Pendragon said:
No apologies necessary, Canis. :) I was far more aggrivated by a poster much earlier in the thread. I merely got to the point, coincidentally after your post, where I felt that I'd pretty much defined my stance as well as possible, and further discussion wasn't going to convince anyone if what I'd already posted could not. ;)
Ah, but I don't actually believe in the inability to continue a discussion. As a result, I DO believe in my ability to offend people with my persistence.

My fiancee is looking into 12-step programs....
 

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Well, we are still discussing a paladin who's taken the Celestial Mount feat, are we not?

(Or have I mixed up my threads again?)

That feat applies the Celestial template to the mount, and the Celestial template says:



Since it can be any good, it makes the most sense for a Paladin's mount to be LG, but NG is probably acceptable, as well.

Good point, the OP was about a paladin mount upgraded with celestial template which does turn alignment to good (any).
 

Lord Pendragon said:
Hrm. I had always thought it was self-evident, but re-reading it you're right to point out that nowhere is it mentioned in the paladin's mount rules.

I suppose I am extrapolating from the fact that the paladin's mount is sent from Heaven, and that the cohort rules require any cohort to a paladin to be Lawful-Good. Hence it seems (to me) only natural that a paladin's mount must in fact also be Lawful-Good.

Well, a paladin can adventure with any neutral companions with no problems, he could have a neutral normal warhorse or faithful guard dog for example. Only his cohorts, followers, and henchmen must be LG. And a paladin mount is not a cohort, follower, or henchman. So the rules are not contradictory in giving normal paladin mounts a neutral alignment.

I wasn't sure myself until I looked up the rules today in response to your posting because I realized I didn't know whether they were neutral or LG.

Your extrapolation is a reasonable one to make a house rule out of though and fits with the flavor description well.
 

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