[pimping] Villain classes for D&D

[jmucchiello]

You should add appropriate magic items for NPCs of their level. Just make it another column on the class chart (level,BAB, saves, special, spells per day, typical equipment). A good DM resource should be as fast to use as possible.

 

[Nifft]

I like the idea -- but I hate some of the implications.

I'm a lazy bastard. Also, I'm dumb. I want to be able to thwack some NPCs together and be able to write down EVERYTHING they could possibly do. Because, otherwise, I will forget during combat. With your classes, I have to remember a lot of different options at the table -- which is when I don't have much time to think. It's like the opposite of a Warlock (which I love in no small part because of its total tactical simplicity).

Now, someone who's smarter and more organized than me might have an easier time with this stuff... me, I'd like to give each NPC bad guy his own special trick, and have him exploit the hell out of that.

I'd rather have an NPC who can do one thing all day -- that way, even my players will know what to expect when they meet him for the third time. (Not that they're lazy or unobservant, but they don't see the NPCs for very much time total.)

So: while I applaud your efforts, they won't be much use to me, except as a template. Because when battle rolls around, I want to focus on talking smack and giving away plot-secrets a trickle at a time, and that's where my attention is focused. What an NPC does each round has to be decided in like half a second.

And in that half a second, I'm at my most lazy and dumb.

Anyway. Thank you! The idea of levels where each one is +1 CR and not ever +1 PC level is brilliant, and I want more of them, but I want them to be more amenable to dumb lazy bastards.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

You should add appropriate magic items for NPCs of their level. Just make it another column on the class chart (level,BAB, saves, special, spells per day, typical equipment). A good DM resource should be as fast to use as possible.

They do have magic items for their level.

Swift assassin 10: weapon +2, armour +2, gloves of Dex +2, periapt of Wis +2

Armoured reaver 10: weapon +2, armour +2, gauntlets of Str +2, amulet of Con +2

Darkmage 10: bracers of armour +2, gloves of Dex +2, amulet of Con +2, headband of Int +2

etc. If you want you can pad out their item list, but personally, as long as it's within +/-10% of the NPC table I'm happy.

 

[hong]

I like the idea -- but I hate some of the implications.

What implications?

I'm a lazy bastard. Also, I'm dumb. I want to be able to thwack some NPCs together and be able to write down EVERYTHING they could possibly do. Because, otherwise, I will forget during combat. With your classes, I have to remember a lot of different options at the table -- which is when I don't have much time to think. It's like the opposite of a Warlock (which I love in no small part because of its total tactical simplicity).

Now, someone who's smarter and more organized than me might have an easier time with this stuff... me, I'd like to give each NPC bad guy his own special trick, and have him exploit the hell out of that.

What's so hard about these guys?

Reaver: full attack every round
Assassin: feint and sudden strike every round
Darkmage: blast away every round (with a reserve feat if necessary)

It's possible to have NPCs doing all sorts of fancy tricks each round. It's also possible to pare it down to bare essentials. And just remember: diamond nightmare blade 1/encounter.

 

[Nifft]

What implications?

A lot of combat options; I have to remember all maneuvers; I have to remember all Sor/Wiz spells.

What's so hard about these guys?

Just the Darkmage: too many spell choices each round; 2 spells of each level is really annoying (why not let me just prep spells from one or two levels?); four different Immediate actions which can grant different bonuses based on what spell slot is expended (more tactical complexity).

He can buff himself with any Sorc/Wiz spell. That's a lot of potential buffs. Many of them can out-last any given encounter. Are they up later in the day when the party re-encounters him? Is it in his interest to unload his 2-4 "top shelf" spells and then teleport away, which gives him those spell slots back?

Anyway, just one penguin's vague whining.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

A lot of combat options; I have to remember all maneuvers; I have to remember all Sor/Wiz spells.

No, no. You CAN use maneuvers if you want. You do not HAVE to use maneuvers. That's why there are uses for maneuver slots that don't require looking up the books, and the same for spell slots. And honestly, if you've been spending a month building new ToB schools and classes, you should be pretty damn familiar with the book by now.

Just the Darkmage: too many spell choices each round; 2 spells of each level is really annoying (why not let me just prep spells from one or two levels?);

What, you want unlimited meteor swarms?

Blasting all day long is exactly what reserve feats are for, and exactly why the class lets you get them with bonus feats.

four different Immediate actions which can grant different bonuses based on what spell slot is expended (more tactical complexity).

Start at the bottom and work your way up. Or start at the top, and work your way down.

He can buff himself with any Sorc/Wiz spell. That's a lot of potential buffs.

Which you don't have to use. That's why the character gets preset buffs like +level/2 to saves and +level to AC: so you can get on with the game, without spending 6 rounds buffing.

Many of them can out-last any given encounter.

So don't use them.

Are they up later in the day when the party re-encounters him?

Similarly, you'll never have to ponder these questions if you don't use them.

Is it in his interest to unload his 2-4 "top shelf" spells and then teleport away, which gives him those spell slots back?

Ask yourself this: is it in YOUR interest as DM, keeping plot, party condition and current circumstances in mind, for him to blast and run? NPC classes exist for one reason: to make things simple. If you want to make them complicated, you can do that too, but on your own head be it.

 

[Nifft]

So don't use them.

Suspect I won't, except perhaps as a baseline for writing specific custom bad guys. But I do appreciate your effort in putting them together.

Thanks, -- N

 

[hong]

Suspect I won't,

Exactly. No buffs.

except perhaps as a baseline for writing specific custom bad guys.

Exactly. Without buffs.

But I do appreciate your effort in putting them together.

Don't forget to remove those incredibly hard buffs!

 

[Nifft]

Don't forget to remove those incredibly hard buffs!

Aww, c'mon.

I was trying to give feedback. Not win a fight. I really do like how you've reduced half of the work, but it seems like the other half is a move backwards (away from easy pre-set stuff).

The implicit basic buffs are good. The ones that trouble me are not basics like mage armor, but more complex ones like alter self at one end of the casting rainbow or shapechange at the other.

Anyway. If you're annoyed with me, come attack my Martial Adept stuff.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Okay, okay, sorry.

What I'm trying to do is balance tactical flexibility, build times and bookkeeping requirements. For the darkmage, the sor/wiz spell list gives maximum tactical flexibility, plus it's the system I'm most familiar with, which is why I thought I'd use it (as opposed to warlock invocations or psionics).

This does, as you note, have the potential for bogging the game down. I don't see it as that big a deal, though. If you don't want to cast a complicate spell like shapechange, then... don't do it. It's not like the class _requires_ you to do complicated stuff to be challenging.

For the spell-level-dependent abilities, this is indeed more complicated than maneuvers. What could be done in this case is change them to work off class level instead. That would also give the class a bit more durability in a fight: burn useless 1st level slots on special abilities, and save the higher-level slots for actual spells.