Pinned Dragon

[Bob Mackenzie]

Last game my players subdued a wyrmling white dragon by Grappling it. First player pinned it with a grapple then the others kicked the stuffing out of it.

There was some discent over whether a pinned dragon could use its breath weapon. I ruled it could but a save would completely negate the damage as the dragon's head would have limited mobility. This worked OK at the time but I wonder what the official rules are on the matter?

Cheers

Bob

 

[Epametheus]

From the SRD:

Snatch: A dragon that hits with a claw or bite attack attempts to start a grapple as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the dragon gets a hold with a claw on a creature four or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic claw damage. If it gets a hold with its bite on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it automatically deals bite damage each round, or if it does not move and takes no other action in combat, it deals double bite damage to the snatched creature. A snatched creature gets no saving throw against the dragon’s breath weapon. The dragon can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage, per age category of the dragon. If the dragon flings it while flying, the creature suffers this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Depending on how you read that, it could mean that if you're in a grapple with a dragon, you simply don't get a saving throw against the breath weapon. I don't care for that interpretation myself, but that's what most of the people in my gaming group would argue for (including the group's main rules lawyer). My biggest problem with that is when you bring in the Metallic dragons (especially Silver) -- sleep, repulsion, or paralysis with no save allowed is really bad, IMO.

I don't see any reason why the dragon couldn't use its breath weapon (unless another PC used a Pin to hold its jaws shut), but probably a save as normal -- being face-to-face with a dragon isn't exactly good protection, but you aren't in its jaws, either.

And would you happen to be running Sunless Citadel?

 

[Stalker0]

I'd go with opposed grapple check. The dragon wins he can aim his head, he fails and then have his head immobilized.

 

[Alejandro]

Snatch really doesn't apply in this case, since it's the dragon that's being grappled, not the dragon Snatching his victims.

Strictly looking at the Grappling rules, the dragon should only be able to escape or break out of the pin after it's been put into such a position. Thus, no breath weapons.

I gotta say, that PC had huge, clanging brass ones to try and grapple a dragon.

 

[Brekki]

From MM2:

A dragon can always ue its breath weapon while grappling, as well as its spell-like or supernatural abilities, provided it succeeds at a Concentration check.

There are also rules there (page 78) about which attacks a dragon can use in a grapple.

 

[Alejandro]

Ah, I didn't know that! I don't have the MM2, but am glad to learn this rule.

Breathe away!

 

[Bob Mackenzie]

A dragon can always ue its breath weapon while grappling, as well as its spell-like or supernatural abilities, provided it succeeds at a Concentration check..

Brekki

Thanks for the answer. It implies to me that a grappled dragon needs a concentration check to breathe - well thats one way of reading it. I suspect that isn't the way its meant.

Cheers

Bob

 

[Bob Mackenzie]

I'd go with opposed grapple check. The dragon wins he can aim his head, he fails and then have his head immobilized.

Stalker

If Ive read the PHB correctly all grapples to pin (or unpin) are opposed strength checks. If the Dragon makes it then its free to do as it wishes not just breathe (assuming I got the rules right)

Cheers

Bob

 

[Bob Mackenzie]

And would you happen to be running Sunless Citadel?

Well spotted!

My first role playing foray for 10 years with a brand new rules system - so I'm a bit shakey. Still the players seem to be having fun

[module spoiler comming up]

So the players have subdued the dragon and returned it to the Kobolds. Now they plan to wipe the Kobolds out - so they'll have to fight it again!

Cheers

Bob

 

[reapersaurus]

I gotta say, that PC had huge, clanging brass ones to try and grapple a dragon.

It's a frickin' wee dragon - a BABY wyrmling!

I'm seriously considering having the PC I play, Ubaar (see sig) grapple a almost-Huge adult dragon in the Against the Storm In-Character adventure .... too bad Evard's Black Tentacles don't work better to help, or Ubaar would easily win with his Strength and Wrestling skill.

ahhh, but that breath attack might be a bit much to withstand...
eh, he's a tough ol' half-orc... what'are hit points for, anyway?