pinpointing invisible opponents

[Nail]

Can a bag of flour be used as a splash weapon?

Probably.

The uses I've seen/heard about:

• Throw open bag of flour near/at invisible creature,
• Throw flour on the floor to reveal footsteps,
• Throw flour into the air as a cloud, which might coat nearby invisible creatures,
• Bake a loaf of bread...no one can resist the smell of baking bread....

 

[phindar]

So if you dump flour on top of someone, it stays visible unless they turn all their clothes inside out, or cast invisibility again.

So what's the concealment modifier for a light dusting of flour? Would you go with 20%, or would it completely invalidate the spell? (I guess it depends on how much flour sticks to the target, but then what kind of roll is that?)

[rant]The most troubling line in the spell description to me:

"For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)"

Does that mean fireballing your friends doesn't break the spell? What about an invisible, dominated creature who believes the party is his friend and that his fireball spells are mass heals? Fireballing an empty field wouldn't break Invisibility, but what if there was an invisible enemy in that field?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to say that an attack (by weapon or detrimental spell that targets a creature or includes a creature in its area of effect) breaks invisibility, rather than leaving it up to the "perceptions" of the invisible creature, or that casting any spell with a detrimental effect breaks the spell, whether or not its centered one someone? Does it really matter if the invisible creature is using a Scorching Ray to kill a goblin or to set a barn on fire? [/rant]

 

[Nail]

Wouldn't it have made more sense to say that an attack (by weapon or detrimental spell that targets a creature or includes a creature in its area of effect) breaks invisibility, rather than leaving it up to the "perceptions" of the invisible creature, or that casting any spell with a detrimental effect breaks the spell, whether or not its centered one someone?

What is an attack spell? A detrimental spell?

Is Mass Heal an attack spell? What determines if Mass Heal is an attack spell?

 

[Rath the Brown]

So what's the concealment modifier for a light dusting of flour? Would you go with 20%, or would it completely invalidate the spell?

According to the description of a Flour Pouch (a satchel of flour tied loosely on purpose, the main use of which is to reveal invisible creatures) in Dungeonscape, coating an invisible creature in flour lets you keep track of its position and reduces the miss chance to 20%.

Trying to hit a creature with a Flour Pouch does require you to pinpoint the creature's position (or choose a space to attack in) and the normal 50% miss chance applies.

Can a bag of flour be used as a splash weapon?

Yep, the Flour Pouch can also be used as a splash weapon, covering any creatures in the space that is hit with flour, as well as all other creatures within 5 feet.


The description does include instructions on how to remove the flour and the penalties the floud imposes upon Hiding while invisible but covered in flour.

 

[phindar]

Is Mass Heal an attack spell? What determines if Mass Heal is an attack spell?

Mass Heal cast on allies fighting hobgoblins is not an attack spell. Mass heal cast on allies fighting undead is an attack spell.

But my point is just that having a GM rule what's an attack is less problematic than basing it off the perceptions of the invisible character, as in, "What makes the Scorching Ray cast at a goblin any different than the one cast at the pile of hay?"

Btw, thanx to Rath for the info. It really seems like those are the kind of mechanics that should be mentioned in the Invisibility description, rather than in a supplement released 6 years later though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But my point is just that having a GM rule what's an attack is less problematic than basing it off the perceptions of the invisible character, as in, "What makes the Scorching Ray cast at a goblin any different than the one cast at the pile of hay?"

What makes swinging an axe at a goblin any different to swinging an axe at a rope supporting a bridge?

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

Well, off the top of my head, I'd say a lot of things. (In the eyes of the law it'd be the difference between Destruction of Property and Murder, for one thing.) But that's my point, that it would be better to describe what actions would cause the spell to fail, rather than a list of circumstances in which some actions may or may not cause the spell to fail.

If you use an axe to cut a rope, you remain invisible. But if you swing the axe and hit the invisible goblin sitting on top of the rope (who is there to make sure no one cuts it, but doesn't see you as you are invisible), and you accidentally hit him (rolling high enough to hit his AC, and the overcoming the 50% miss chance), you become visible. Its the same swing of an axe, but the end result is radically different.

So, what is the difference between swinging an axe at a goblin, and swinging an axe at a rope?

 

[Nail]

So, what is the difference between swinging an axe at a goblin, and swinging an axe at a rope?

One is an attack, at least from "the invisible character’s perceptions."

 

[Elethiomel]

Mass Heal cast on allies fighting hobgoblins is not an attack spell. Mass heal cast on allies fighting undead is an attack spell.

Only if you target the undead as well as your allies.

 

[Twowolves]

What makes swinging an axe at a goblin any different to swinging an axe at a rope supporting a bridge?

-Hyp.

Intent.

Just like 1st ed Find Traps doubles as "Detect Intent", when, say, detecting a weak wall meant to collapse on purpose, or a weak wall that was just old and ready to fall on someone anyway.