pirate sniper build

[statimp]

at first i was going to use a heavy repeating crossbow but then i found the quick reloading enchantment in the arms and equipment book and decided to go with a great crossbow. with that enchantment and rapid reload, loading a great crossbow is a free action. and i can use a large great crossbow (me and the DM both decided that monkey grip would not let you use a huge weapon) which does 3d8 damage and has a crit range of 18-20 x2, much better than it's repeating counterpart. so it out damages greatbows significantly now, especially with crossbow sniper.

i was looking through crag top archer again and realized some of the possibilities that i had missed earlier. i thought horizon shot was a once per day ability. i didn't realize i could use it whenever i wanted. so now im going to be taking crag top archer to 4. at deepwood stalker 10/crag top archer 4 ill be able to shoot 4500 feet with no penalty!!!! That is just insane! and it is exactly what i wanted the character to be able to do.

so ill reconfigure again to accommodate for crag top archer at an earlier level.

a new question i have though is about spot distance. i calculated the DC check for spotting someone from 4500 feet away. with crag top archer it's 225 (WTF). so i'm wondering if that sounds reasonable. because it doesn't sound reasonable to me at all. i have seen people from at least a mile away while on a boat and in good lighting. if i was in a crows nest it would be much easier. are there any rules for spotting distances at sea? maybe i could get a telescope? do those exist? that would be awesome.

thanks for all the help.

edit: here's my sniper 2.5

level 2: take fighter and feat: rapid reload
level 3: feat: far shot and feat: point blank shot
level 4: +1 dex
level 5: take deepwood sniper
level 6: take crag top archer and feat: rapid shot
level 8: +1 dex
level 9: feat: precise shot
level 10: continue taking deepwood sniper
level 12: +1 dex, feat: crossbow sniper
level 15: feat: woodland archer
level 16: +1 dex and
level 18: feat: improved rapid shot
level 19: continue taking fighter and feat: improved precise shot
level 20: +1 dex

he's certainly starting to look like i want him to.

 

[Ashtagon]

Stormwrack says Spot in an ocean terrain setting goes to 4d8×10 feet (average 180 feet). That gets doubled for each size class increase, to an average of 2880 feet for a Colossal object or creature. That's a little over half a mile, which is still pretty pathetic.

I'm not sure where you got the formula for Spot DCs from. The DMG notes a maximum distance, beyond which checks simply fail, no roll required.

I'd justify the Spot DCs and maximum distances as the values under combat conditions, when it is essential that you see it right now and it be immediately obvious to you at a quick glance. Under non-urgent conditions, you should be able to see any sufficiently large and/or contrasting object. Mountains, for example, can typically be seen for a hundred miles, no Spot check required.

 

[statimp]

i found the rules in the rules compendium. it says for every 10 feet of distance the dc goes up by 1. for cragtop archers its 1 for every 20 feet. 4500/20 is 225. i think i'll just have a talk with my dm. maybe get a telescope or arrows of seeing or something.

edit: found it. there is a little table on page 89 in stormwrack that says that if i am in the masthead i can see an object in the water from a mile away, a small boat (rowboat) from 6 miles and a large boat up to 12 miles away. so if i can see a person in the water from a mile away, seeing a person on the deck of a ship from 4500 feet shouldn't be too hard.

It's a DC 20 to see a small object in the water from a mile away while on the masthead. what do you think a good check would be to see a person on a deck from 4500 feet away (85% of a mile). 20 times .85 is 17 and they are on a deck so maybe like a -2 for that? making it a solid 15? what do you think?

 

[irdeggman]

As spmeone pointed out you are freely mixing 3.0 and 3.5 material.

Deepwood sniper was never converted into a 3.5 prestige class (and ther has been a lot of discussion over why on these boards).

I have to assume you are playing in a 3.5 based game.

Anything not specifically converted to 3.5 by WotC requires a special look by the DM - so many things had drastically changed, especially the way the ranger base class was rebuilt, that there can be huge differences and a straight up no considereation allowance is very, very unwise.

 

[statimp]

you assume that the DM and I have put no thought into this? how one person plays a campaign vs how another person does varies wildly. in our group we usually say that if you want to do something then do it. after everyone finishes their characters we go through and see if there are any blatant rules violations or things that don't make any sense. if some things are a little over powered then the DM adjusts accordingly. we looked through the deepwood sniper and decided it was fine for 3.5.

please don't just i assume i don't know what i'm doing. it's kinda rude.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There is no reason for Deepwood Sniper to not work in 3.5, it requires almost no conversion at all. And you don't really have a leg to stand on if you try and argue that it's overpowered and that's why it's left out. God bless WotC for protecting us from such overpowered 3.0 material and giving us the Planar Shepherd, Tome of Battle classes, and Turn Undead cheese in 3.5! SOOOOOO much more balanced by comparison! /gag

As for Spot distance, you generally only need to use the regular spot rules (DC +1 for every 10 feet, 20 for Cragtop Archer) against things/creatures that are actively hiding or hidden. Any regular human can see people 500 feet away or a ship a few thousand feet away no problem.

That said, some DMs don't follow common sense and RAI and actually expect you to roll up spot to see anything at all in the distance. Even if your DM is reasonable, a lot of reasonable DMs might factor in higher spot DCs to see things at various range "increments" (I don't mean like your weapon's, I mean that maybe he declares it's Spot 15 to see stuff at 1000 feet away, Spot 20 to see things at 1500 feet away, etc...). So in any case, maximizing the hell out of your Spot modifier is generally a good idea for a long range archer.

But it's really the DM's call to assign spot DCs for long distance, not much point in us giving our opinions unless your DM actually reads this thread.

EDIT: Horizon shot is unlimited use because it's only really worth it at extreme ranges. It's a full round action for only one attack. Great from 15 range increments away and totally worth it. Once they're within 5 range increments? I'd rather full attack (and rapid shot) with the -5.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, if you want to read more about archery optimization, this handbook is a good resource, including the crossbow section.

This handbook has some broken links and may be a little outdated, but it has some useful ideas and information.
For a thread purely about getting obscenely long ranges (to the point that you need divination magic to actually see where you're firing), look no further than here (one of my most favorite threads ever made).

 

[irdeggman]

you assume that the DM and I have put no thought into this? how one person plays a campaign vs how another person does varies wildly. in our group we usually say that if you want to do something then do it. after everyone finishes their characters we go through and see if there are any blatant rules violations or things that don't make any sense. if some things are a little over powered then the DM adjusts accordingly. we looked through the deepwood sniper and decided it was fine for 3.5.

please don't just i assume i don't know what i'm doing. it's kinda rude.

Woa there - I never said anything of the sort.

Several people asked what version you were playing and pointed out that you were combining different versions - at no point did you answer them.

What I was trying to do was to figure in what context I should attempt to answer your questions.

When you combine versions freely and don't post what the house-rules you are using are it makes it very difficult to provide a rules based answer.

Sorry, I did not mean to come across as rude only inquisitive and provide words of caution.

 

[irdeggman]

the reason that crossbows do more damage is purely because of the feat crossbow sniper. if there was a feat similar to it for bows then bows would be better. I'm also considering using a great crossbow with the quick reloading enchantment on it. that coupled with rapid reload would make reloading it a free action. on top of that heavy crossbows deal more damage.

Help me out with this - where is the quick reloading enchantment from (what book) and what does it do?

 

[statimp]

@streamofthesky
i think we are just using the stormwrack nautical spot checks for this campaign. seeing a person on a boat from 4500 feet away would be no easy task. seeing the boat however should be almost automatic.

@irdeggman
sorry about the misunderstanding then. it really sounded like you were being condescending. we try to limit our 3.0 use but for the most part anything is fair game. the enchantment is from the arms and equipment guide. it attaches a portable hole to your crossbow like a clip, the portable hole can hold 100 arrows and it makes reloading the crossbow a move equivalent action instead of a full round. rapid reload would reduce that move equivalent action to a free action.