Pirating RPGs. (And were not talking "arggg" pirate stuff here.)

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Wow, this is a BIG can o' worms... look at 'em squirm!

The reason that people identify copyright violation over the internet as theft is because the recipient has received something that belongs to somebody else without paying for it, while simplistic it is a close definition of theft.

When people do work, creative or otherwise, they desire to be paid for their time. They see the items they have made being given away by people and are understandably annoyed with the people who are giving away what really does not belong to them. I would be as well. Payment is an incentive to work. And if the work they produce is worth having then they deserve to be paid.

Whether or not every person who downoads the work would have purchased it is beside the point - they did not purchase it.

Nor is complaining that the PDF is too expensive work as an excuse - I would not pay $28
for the Army of Darkness game either- So I won't get it. Not pirate it, just go 'oh well, too rich for my blood', and take a look at something else instead, something that I can afford.

The Auld Grump, who does not have so much as an illegal MP3 on his computer.
 

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Kamikaze Midget said:
Internet and satelite allow for musical options, but they are still forced into pigeonholes based on what the suits dictate as genres, because genres are easier to market than bands. You have the "classical" station, the "top 40" station, the "blues" station, the "oldies" station, the "rock" station, the "country" station, the "electronic" station, etc. These are all artificial categories; these categories do stymie creativity.
I like most of what you say, but this simply isn't true. Suits don't dictate creativity-stymieing genres--artists do. To be more specific, second- and third-rate artists do. These are (in the pop-music industry) usually people with passable musicianship who lack any sort of composition skills: they imitate the music they like but lack the sort of artistic talent necessary to get beyond it; and the same is generally true of their public. Most people don't listen to what (we can probably both agree to call) total trash just because it's what's marketed to them; it's also marketed to them because it's what they listen to, and because you can bank on their willingness to keep listening to it. Artistically bankrupt artists and consumers keep the suits in business, not (at least not entirely; there's obviously some feedback here) the other way around.

Kamikaze Midget said:
But the most significant and profound art is *always* a gamble. That doesn't mesh well at all with a business model.
This I can agree with. But I maintain that the problem is with most creators and consumers, not financiers. The dearth of discerning artists and audiences is the cause of paint-by-numbers music and writing and so on. The suits, as you keep calling them, are only exploiting this general lack of artistic intelligence as a business strategy.
 

Numion said:
No I haven't. I may or may not have infringed on your right. I've stolen nothing.

Why the "pro-copyright" side needs to resort to mispresentation like this is beyond me. But thats what the recording industry is using in the propaganda. It makes me cringe that they've directly brought the infomercials based on US law to finnish movie theaters. "Copying a movie is stealing"; it isn't anywhere. "Copying a movie is a crime"; when it isn't in Finland.

Of course, I said you have taken something from me. And you have, you have taken away my legally guaranteed exclusive right to make copies of my work. I didn't say you stole it.

Why the pro-lawbreaking side of the argument needs to resort to miquotation like this is beyond me.
 

The Sigil said:
From my vantage point, there are four major changes that can be made to make the system workable. They are not mutually exclusive, and not necessarily all required.

The problem is that your proposals would likely worsen the problems you seem concerned with, not help them.

1 - Shorten copyright duration. Drastically. Like, to 14 years (possibly less).


This helps the "big guy" a lot, and hurts the "little guy". The "big guy" can afford to churn out cheap, disposable stuff. Britney Spears is a classic example of this. Her music won't be worth anything fifteen years from now. The only people you hurt with this rule are those who create enduring, valuable material. Shouldn't the law encourage that sort of thing?

2 - Restrict ownership of copyright to "natural persons." In the case of multiple people creating a work (e.g., Lennon/McCartney), each and every collaborator is entitled to exercise all rights without permission of the others.


Except you have now made copyright a lot less valuable for the actual authors of a work. One of the big money making avenues of individual authors is the ability to sell their work to a corporation that can market the work. restricting the ability to sell works of authorship makes them inherently less valuable to the creator.

3 - Require registration of copyright (like used to be required by registering a copy with the Library of Congress). This at least makes it easy to track down a copyright holder (the "orphan works" problem).


This just helps the "big guy". Who do you think will win the race to the courthouse? Its usually the guy with more resources.

4 - Create a "compulsory licensing" scheme for all copyrightable formats and expand it to include "perfect/direct copies." When you download/create a copy of something, you can "register" that copy with a central clearinghouse for a nominal fee (fee schedule obviously to be determined, but for ease of use, let's say $.50 for non-computer works like books, $.20 for computer-held works under 1 GB in length and $1 for computer-held works over 1 GB in length such as DVDs). This could work in combination with #3 above so that I can download a copy of, say, "LotR: RotK" off the internet, then pay the Library of Congress a $1 fee which is then passed along to New Line Studios). If I am then "busted" for copyright infringement of LotR:RotK, I can simply call up the Library of Congress and get my receipt, which immediately clears me of infringement charges with respet to LotR:RotK - I paid my compulsory license fee. This also creates kind of an "amnesty" program, if you will, for all those people who still have stuff they downloaded from Napster back in 2000, or whatever... pay your compulsory license fee, and you're good! You don't have to worry about being sued. The studio gets money. Everyone wins.


Unfortunately unworkable. The compulsory license system for music only works because it applies to very public activity relating to the work, and hence, is self-policing. Private use of a similar system would be impossible to regulate with any kind of success.
 

Spell said:
i can't believe that anybody in his right mind would need britney spears's music.

Do you really think that if music were reduced to a partronage system the music you like would be supported? I doubt it. Besides, why does it bother you this much that people buy music you personally dislike?
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I'm surprised you haven't heard that one before. Copyright *does* reduce creativity. Turn on the radio, bub. How many Drowning Pool songs sound that different to you?

I hate to break it to you, but you are dead wrong. There is a wider variety of music available right now than ever before. The production of new music has been much more prolific in the last half of the twentieth century than ever before. Copyright increases the volume of material produced - both good and bad.
 


Kamikaze Midget said:
It was the first metaphor that sprung to mind, and it seems *surprisingly* apt. If it's the art we want, why at the moment is 80%-ish of the money we plunk down on a copy of the art going to the copers, and only a small fraction going to the artists? The money isn't (largely) going to the artists, it isn't going to the individuals whose services we want. It's going to the individuals who organize and secure those services. This seems entirely backwards. I shouldn't be supporting an *industry* when I buy a CD -- I should be supporting the creator.

There is a surprisingly simple answer to this: because without the suits, the artist would make far less money than they would with them. The suits provide value, whether you believe it or not. In the modern world, producing things is generally much easier than distributing them.

IMHO, these are all good things. Ug not standing to make a million Dino-Dollars from the buffallo he painted on the wall didn't stop him from doing it. There, ideally, should be a monetary incentive to produce art. But that incentive should come from the community, from the public, from the people who will recieve and interpret the art. Not from guys in suits who copy it.


The incentive ultimately does come from the public. The "guys in suits" want to make money. They can only do that by selling stuff the public wants to buy. If the public wanted yodeling CDs, you better believe that we'd get plenty of them.

And I don't think that the incentive should be enough to be able to "live off of art." It should absolutely be something you want to do for it's own sake, not because you will survive off of it. Kinda like the RPG market right now...which is that way specifically because one major company gave up a large percentage of its product for free reproduction. :)


Then I suppose you had better be ready for a lot less copyrighted materials to be available for you to enjoy. Because you have just driven a lot of creative people out of the market by making it not worth their time to put their material out.

Free music doesn't sound like it's copyright to me. It sounds specifically as if it is an exception to the copyright rules: you can take this product and distribute it for free over the airwaves. You don't have to pay to release it. Or if you do pay, you pay not by charging the listener, but by charging advertisors (which is also a huge part of this New Economy anyway).


Legally you can't distribute it for free. This is one of the areas where compulsory licenses come into play.

Internet and satelite allow for musical options, but they are still forced into pigeonholes based on what the suits dictate as genres, because genres are easier to market than bands. You have the "classical" station, the "top 40" station, the "blues" station, the "oldies" station, the "rock" station, the "country" station, the "electronic" station, etc. These are all artificial categories; these categories do stymie creativity.


Actually, they are categories that the market has come up with, based upon the revealed preferences of consumers. They like things bundled, because it means they will listen to what they like.

Because if what I release as new music is not easily fit into one of these categories, it is rejected, and the reason is because of the suits. Because the way for their business of copying things to make money is to copy something that people will want a lot of copies of, and if it doesn't fit into a genre, if it breaks new ground, if it doesn't fit into an old pattern, the numbers say it is a gamble at best, and you don't run a business on gambles.


Tell that to Jobs and Gates. Their entire business model was a gamble, and it made them incredibly wealthy. Most wealth is generated by risk-takers who take a big gamble on a product.

I've never myself made the claim that copyright is worthless evil grumble grumble, though I have pointed out why others think so (namely, that saying only certain people have the right to copy something is like saying only certain people have the right to have children).


So, not letting you have the product of my work is like not letting you have children? That's silly. A more apt analogy would be that not letting you make copies of my work is like not letting you raise my children. Make your own work, or have your own children.

In fact, I said that I think the idea of copyright is probably a good way to encourage artists (I think that limited, temporary, creator-owned, and nonstransferrable copyright is a pretty solid way to do this).


Nontransferrable pretty much makes copyright worthless from the get-go.

That doesn't mean that it's the only way. And it obviously isn't the right way anymore, with all that it has done to hurt those it was meant to protect. Perhaps the modern way of doing it is a perversion of the intentions of the old system, but it's important to address the issues as they exist today, rather than defend what exists today because it once had a good reason somewhere in the deep past.


I don't think it is obvious at all, and I don't think it hurts those it was meant to protect. It was meant to protect those who make works of authorship, and it does that still. And it remains the only economically viable way to make this work without putting the control of creating new works in the hands of wealthy patrons gratifying their own whims.
 

"If more than one person can be viewing it per purchased license, it's copyright infringement."

God forbid that you borrow one of your books to a friend, then.
 

First. I didn't all those 6 new pages before answering, so don't know it this has already been discussed.

S'mon said:
If by victims you mean groups like the MPAA & RIAA or corporations like Disney I certainly see them as worse than not-for-profit unauthorised downloaders, yup. I do think there should be copyright law (and I would advocate paying for Eden's product rather than downloading a free copy, or preferably doing neither since their download price is ridiculously high) , but what we have currently is far worse than no law at all. I'm not sure how anyone can say that executing copyright infringers, as apparently required by the US in WTO negotiations, is better than doing nothing. I'd advocate a return to original Statute of Anne principles - copyright needs to be registered & lasts 14 years from publication.

If I make an extraordinaly good invention realted to my work which I am paid for I might get some bonus. But tell me why book that someone wrote and then died 50 years ago should benefit his grandchilds?

Second to that copyright should last limited and reasonable time (10-20 years) only and not 70 years after the death of creator. Or is it already 90 because of Disney?
 

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