Pit Fiend Defenses Explained

[WyzardWhately]

I think it's a coincidence. There isn't going to be a formula like what you're looking for - there's a formula based on its level and role, though, if WotC hasn't drastically misled us all.

 

[Vayden]

I think it's a coincidence. There isn't going to be a formula like what you're looking for - there's a formula based on its level and role, though, if WotC hasn't drastically misled us all.

I agree. To make your math work, you're essentially assigning random bonuses to the monster role as if it were a class. I think the "level 26 leader" generates those basic stats all on its own and the ability modifiers have very little to do with it.

 

[JohnSnow]

Okay, let's actually try some real reverse engineering. Here are the relevant lines from Ampersand: The Devil's in the Details

Pit Fiend Level 26 Elite Soldier (Leader)
Large immortal humanoid (devil) XP 18,000
Initiative +22 Senses Perception +23; darkvision
Aura of Fear (Fear) aura 5; enemies in the aura take a –2 penalty on attack rolls.
Aura of Fire (Fire) aura 5; enemies that enter or start their turns in the aura take 15 fire damage.
HP 350; Bloodied 175
AC 44; Fortitude 42, Reflex 38, Will 40
Resist 30 fire, 15 poison
Saving Throws +2
Speed 12, fly 12 (clumsy), teleport 10
Action Points 1
Melee Flametouched Mace (standard; at-will) • Fire, Weapon
Reach 2; +31 vs. AC; 1d12+11 fire damage plus ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).
Melee Tail Sting (standard; at-will) • Poison
+31 vs. AC; 1d6+11 damage, and the pit fiend may make a free followup attack. Followup: +29 vs. Fortitude; ongoing 15 poison damage, and the target is weakened (save ends both effects).
Melee Pit Fiend Frenzy (standard; at-will)
The pit fiend makes a flametouched mace attack and a tail sting attack.
Ranged Point of Terror (minor; at-will) • Fear
Range 5; +30 vs. Will; the target takes a –5 penalty to all defenses until the end of the pit fiend's next turn.
...
Alignment Evil
Languages Supernal
Skills Bluff +27, Intimidate +27, Religion +24
Str 32 (+24) Dex 24 (+20) Wis 20 (+18)
Con 27 (+21) Int 22 (+19) Cha 28 (+22)
Equipment flametouched mace, noble signet ring

Okay, we know from Races and Classes that every class gets "a single level-based modifier that applies to all of your character's attacks, defenses, and skill checks. All 10th-level characters have a +5 bonus to AC, all three defenses, attacks, and so on." Assuming this applies to monsters as well, the Spined Devil should get a +3 to all of its attacks, defenses, and skills just for being 6th-level, whereas the Pit Fiend should get a +13 just for being 26th-level.

The interesting thing is that some of the Pit Fiend's attribute bonuses work just fine with the old bonuses if you assume they're basically untrained skill checks. For example, a Charisma 28 (+9 + 13 for level = +22).

That said, the Defenses work out as follows (I'll get to AC in a minute):

FORT 42 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 8 (CON 27) + 11
REF 38 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 7 (DEX 24) + 8
WILL 40 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 5 (WIS 20) + 12

Those last numbers seem pretty random. If we conduct this same reverse-engineering on the 6th-level Spined Devil, we get:

FORT 18 = 10 (base) + 3 (6th-level) + 2 (CON 14) + 3
REF 18 = 10 (base) + 3 (6th-level) + 2 (DEX 15) + 3
WILL 18 = 10 (base) + 3 (6th-level) + 2 (WIS 14) + 3

This is interesting. It seems that the Spined Devil gets +3 to all its defenses just because. But, if we assume that devils get to add their base CHA bonus to all their defenses (just for being devils...it fits with the Paladin's divine grace), then our Spined Devil skirmisher is only getting +1 "just because." Which is a totally believable amount for the "skirmisher."

Our Pit Fiend has a +9 CHA bonus. Factoring that in, we have:

FORT 42 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 8 (CON 27) + 9 (CHA 28) + 2 (misc.)
REF 38 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 7 (DEX 24) + 9 (CHA 28) - 1 (misc.)
WILL 40 = 10 (base) + 13 (26th-level) + 5 (WIS 20) + 9 (CHA 28) + 3 (misc.)

The - 1 to REF makes sense: the Pit Fiend is Large (-1 Size penalty).

So, here's my guess: Between being a Soldier and Leader, he gets a FORT +2, REF +0 and WILL +3. Now, let's go back to AC.

For the Spined Devil, I get:
AC 20 = 18 (REF Defense) + 2 (undetermined bonus)

Now, for the Pit Fiend:
AC 44 = 38 (REF Defense) + 6 (undetermined bonus)

In the Spined Devil's case, that's probably natural armor. For the Pit Fiend, it could be a combination of natural armor and its breastplate.

All this is just speculation, of course. And some math.

 

[HeinorNY]

In SWSE, characters receive flat bonuses to their Defenses based on their classes. In 4E the same probably occur, so the Pit Fiend may also receive flat bonuses to his defenses based on his role (soldier), and/or type(elite) and/or tier.

So the Pit Fiend's defense are most certainly (10 + ability modifier + 1/2 level + monster/type/role/tier bonus).

You can see the math working for the Spined Devil, as he receives a flat +3 to his defenses.


Someone suggested there is no math and the this type of monster just generates those abilities. Well, for that we would need some kind of table or extra rules, and the way things are simpler now, with unified progressions, it's just easier to assign ability scores to the monster and then generate the defenses from there.

 

[bonethug0108]

What if he got reflex +1 and a -2 size penalty?

Also, in the equipment section you should note that no armor is mentioned. If we are to assume that the armor was mentioned for flavor purposes, then something else is adding to ac. My guess is the ring. Maybe some rings are the exception to what gives +n's.

Edit:
This was in response to John Snow's post.

 

[Keenath]

Maybe I'm misguided, but my memory of the Podcast is that monsters don't have any sort of formulae, but rather a set of charts by role and level that give you a range of what is acceptable.

So for a pit fiend, you would go to the Elite table, find the "Soldier" column (which means you're emphasizing defense over damage output) and slide down to level 26, and find that it says you should have HP in the range of 320 to 350, AC in the range of 40-45, and so on. (These are made up numbers, of course.)

You then decide that this guy is supposed to be really scary, so you give him top-end HP and near-maximum AC, etc etc.

There's no math behind picking a 44 instead of a 42 or whatever, other than just what feels right and falls in the proper range of values.

 

[Dausuul]

I agree. To make your math work, you're essentially assigning random bonuses to the monster role as if it were a class. I think the "level 26 leader" generates those basic stats all on its own and the ability modifiers have very little to do with it.

I also agree. From what I can see, the whole idea of the 4E monster design paradigm is to get away from "bottom-up" construction (in which you start with the basic stats like Hit Dice and ability scores, and then build up to the combat stats by way of a lot of elaborate formulae), and shift to "top-down" construction (in which you start with the combat stats you want the monster to have, and don't worry about how you got there).

Unless I am much mistaken, the point of 4E formulae will be to determine what combat stats are suitable for a monster in a given role at a given level. Its ability scores are incidental and irrelevant.

 

[Stalker0]

It's the only way the numbers work. If you've seen other stuff, please, point me there.

Keep in mind, I could be wrong. I would guess that if Paragon grants base 20, then Epic grants base 15, Heroic (of course) base 10 for Defenses.

That's the thing, the numbers don't have to work anymore for monsters. It could be those numbers because those are good numbers to have, that could literally be it.

While there are baselines for certain monster levels, it does not have to follow a strict formula.

 

[evillives]

Okay, let's actually try some real reverse engineering.

Thanks for the backhanded compliment. Question: Did you run this line of reasoning before or after you read this thread?


[/QUOTE]
This is interesting. It seems that the Spined Devil gets +3 to all its defenses just because. But, if we assume that devils get to add their base CHA bonus to all their defenses (just for being devils...it fits with the Paladin's divine grace), then our Spined Devil skirmisher is only getting +1 "just because." Which is a totally believable amount for the "skirmisher."

Our Pit Fiend has a +9 CHA bonus. Factoring that in, we have: [/QUOTE]

Good shot! The CHA bonus did not occur to me, because I was aiming for the greatest simplicity in the numbers.


[/QUOTE]
For the Spined Devil, I get:
AC 20 = 18 (REF Defense) + 2 (undetermined bonus)

Now, for the Pit Fiend:
AC 44 = 38 (REF Defense) + 6 (undetermined bonus)

In the Spined Devil's case, that's probably natural armor. For the Pit Fiend, it could be a combination of natural armor and its breastplate[/QUOTE]

Okay, I buy that. It retains the double whammy that DEX gives you, so that melee characters still have to stick their 2nd or 3rd highest stat in DEX, but the math works and it gives room for nat armor and toys.

Ah, my heady rush of euphoria has been crushed.

 

[HeinorNY]

Its ability scores are incidental and irrelevant.

Do you think you thoughts also apply to the Pit Fiend's skill checks?