Pitting the players against... themselves!

[Felix]

I was kicking around a small adventure for some PCs; take the young prince out of the besieged castle and transport him to saftey in the city of Somewhere. I went through the adventure creation process and thought that the best way to really put the heat on was to have some folks of equivalent power chasing them.

So I thought, hey, two groups of PCs, played by the same players.

At one session they'll play the protectors and fend off ambushes and attacks from this harassing group as well as making their way through rough terrain.

The next session they'll play the hunters keeping up the chase.

I, as the DM, would obviously play the other party the players fight against, and try to be true to their tactics and attitudes. Defeating the other party would be bittersweet for the players since they get to show off their current PC, but then they also lose their other PC.

I mean, hey, if the best part of a DMs job is to screw with the players, wouldn't it be that much better to have the players do it to themselves?

---

Since there's nothing new under the sun, I was wondering who has done this before, how did it go, and what would you do to have made it run smoother?

For those folks who haven't, what's your thoughts?

 

[Wraith Form]

I've never done that. The concept sounds interesting, and I'd be interested in hearing the results. Please feel free to post the aftermath.

Also, I'm curious about your group--are they role-players, or roll-players? That might influence their enjoyment.

 

[Agent Oracle]

One problem:

I had a DM who ran a campaign where our "evil counterparts" were battling against us.

She was the one controlling them at all times.

Here's the problem though: A Level 5 PC-built character is, a CR 5 challenge.

FOUR level 5 PC-built Enemies is CR 9.

Do you expect a 5th level party to be able to drop a CR 9 challenge?

Our "Evil counterparts" reduced half the party to below 0 hp, and dropped the other half to single-digit numbers in their first encounter, and all four of them got away.

i.e. the DM realized what a colossal mistake she had made, and had them "retreat" even though they could have easily killed what remained of the party at that point.

Not helping was that the DM had used some 3rd party sourcebook, and my character's "Evil opposite" was an arcane monk... a 3.0 monk that cast spells as a sorcerer, and because of the way it's power was worded, it effectively had "quicken spell" for free. Getting hit by two "burning hands" spells at the start of combat is not good for any class with d8's for hit dice.

 

[Felix]

Please feel free to post the aftermath.

Oh, it'll be a while. I was just kicking this around for future use. Once I do get around to it, will do.

Do you expect a 5th level party to be able to drop a CR 9 challenge?

Good point. I suppose I will try to leapfrog them so the player party is 1/2 to 1 average level ahead of the other party.

I'll also try to manage it so that what's important is the prince (aka "the football"), and not necessairly killing ambushers or the protectors. At least, that's how I'll play; it should make it interesting on their part since they'll know they're CdGing their own party. Heh heh.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Here's the problem though: A Level 5 PC-built character is, a CR 5 challenge.

FOUR level 5 PC-built Enemies is CR 9.

Do you expect a 5th level party to be able to drop a CR 9 challenge?

Our "Evil counterparts" reduced half the party to below 0 hp, and dropped the other half to single-digit numbers in their first encounter, and all four of them got away.

So... A 5th level party (controlled by the DM) did, indeed, drop a CR 9 challenge (the 5th level PC party).

An encounter with an EL of Party Level +4 is supposed to be very difficult... Or... an even fight. As opposed to the Party Level encounter, which is supposed to be a moderate challenge... Or... use up some small amount of the party's recources.

Back onto the original topic... A friend of mine ran a game for us where he did something similar. First, we played an evil campaign for a while, where we tore stuff up, and eventually made ourselves an evil hideout, or whatever. Then, later, we played a good campaign, where we stormed the evil castle and got the McGuffin back. It was a fabulous time.

Later
silver

 

[Agent Oracle]

So... A 5th level party (controlled by the DM) did, indeed, drop a CR 9 challenge (the 5th level PC party).

No, see, your typical adventuring party has an average of three combat-related encounters per day. (Duengon faire, wandering monster, planned encounter, in any order) The average enemy party gets just that one. Ergo, while the members of the Bad party might throw their everything into killing off the heroes, the heroes are more reserved, and less organized. This is better known as the "If I use my fireball now i'll have nothing to kill the trolls with tonight" effect. Alternately, the "Oh crap, i already used my fireball this morning" effect.

Now, I admit, the party I was in used poor tactics. We split up, each picked on a seperate target, while her NPCs chose those with the fewest hit points and dropped them first. We had no idea what these guys were (the DM would correct us if we guessed at class "It's another monk!"... (chuckling) "No, it's so much more!"

The fight took place in (where else) a tavern, so it was not possible to ever get into any kind of strategic position (never got around my enemy to flank him) And we had a bard, whose evil opposite was a pure rogue.

On top of that, this GM kept extrordinarily detailed records, so she knew not only what class and levels you had, she knew all our saves, feats, and skill points. This wasn't to curb cheating, this was to keep tabs on how to develop the Evil opposites!

Let's review:

-PC's are reluctant to use all their "x per day" abilities, NPC's can use them at liberty (since the NPC party won't have to go and fight trolls after this bar brawl.)

-PC's, even smart PC's, even PC's controlled by the smart players have the strategic abilities of a pillbug. NPC's are operated by a single "hive" mind (The GM)

-The GM knows what the PC's can do, and can (and will) build the NPC's to combat that.

-PC's 0, NPC's: 4

 

[Felix]

The GM knows what the PC's can do, and can (and will) build the NPC's to combat that.

Unless the players build the characters themselves beforehand, which is what I was thinking of having them do. They bring in 2 characters, similar levels, and don't know they'll be in opposing groups.

This is better known as the "If I use my fireball now i'll have nothing to kill the trolls with tonight" effect. Alternately, the "Oh crap, i already used my fireball this morning" effect.

Another caveat; thanks.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

This wasn't from my game, but I heard of a DM who used a similar idea very succesfully.

The campaign was based around the PCs' home town, and was populated with people and places that the players genuinely cared about. The DM announced that he would like to run a one-shot where the players played evil humanoids destroying a city. The players thought this was a great idea. He ran the game and they absolutely wrecked the city, committing various atrocities though not in too ugly of detail.

The next game started off with "As you approach home, you sense that something is wrong. There is a great deal of smoke and the far off noise of the city is not present ..."

 

[Aust Diamondew]

One problem:

I had a DM who ran a campaign where our "evil counterparts" were battling against us.

She was the one controlling them at all times.

Here's the problem though: A Level 5 PC-built character is, a CR 5 challenge.

FOUR level 5 PC-built Enemies is CR 9.

Do you expect a 5th level party to be able to drop a CR 9 challenge?

Our "Evil counterparts" reduced half the party to below 0 hp, and dropped the other half to single-digit numbers in their first encounter, and all four of them got away.

i.e. the DM realized what a colossal mistake she had made, and had them "retreat" even though they could have easily killed what remained of the party at that point.

Not helping was that the DM had used some 3rd party sourcebook, and my character's "Evil opposite" was an arcane monk... a 3.0 monk that cast spells as a sorcerer, and because of the way it's power was worded, it effectively had "quicken spell" for free. Getting hit by two "burning hands" spells at the start of combat is not good for any class with d8's for hit dice.

When CR=Party Level+4 it should be a 50/50 battle. The DMG actually recommends a small number of encounters be set up like this in a given game.
I don't see an issue.

4 level X PCs should equal 4 level X NPCs assuming decend players and a good DM.

 

[Voadam]

I was in a group that hit a mirror of opposition type thing once with Chaos versions of our huge party.

PCs know their characters better IME.

Although I think I would probably crush the 16th level group I DM if they had to face themselves. I don't really have a desire to do that though.