Planar binding = unlimited wishes?

[Perun]

A player of mine thought of this some time ago, but he still hasn't had the opportunity to do (or try) it.

As a DM, I'm against it. From a DM's metagaming point of view, calling outsiders is, generally, a province of wizards (a sorcerer or another class can do it, but the wizard is the ultimate master of calling) -- the one core class that can relatively safely put an 18 in its primary stat (even with a relatively low point-buy method). Allowing such characters to even further boost their ability (thus further increasing his spells per day and spell DCs) makes them difficult to run (I've played with such a wizard in one long-term campaign, creatures of appropriate (or even higher) CR didn't have a chance of resisting his spells, and those high-CR-ed that could were pretty much immune to spells and effects of the rest of the party).

From a consistency point of view, why haven't the efreet become the calling stock of the planes? They're a mid-CR creature with a high-level ability, and every wizard worth his salt would start calling them as soon as he hit mid-levels.

The efreet are LE, organised, and intelligent. IMO, they're perfectly aware of the risks their ability puts them in. They would take precautions. The elemental plane of fire has a lowly, slow-minded, non-genie creature inferior to the efreet -- fire mephit. I'd think that's all an efreeti needs.

The problem (if a DM recognises it as such) can also, be fixed with house-rules (naturally ). As was suggested, replacingwish with limited wish is one such house-rule, although I'd make limited wish a province of common efreet, and only the noble efreet (analogous to djinn nobles) would be able to grant wishes.

Another house rule (one which I use IMCs) is that an outsider can only be permanently distroyed on its home plane. If you "kill" a called creature outside of its home plane, its essence instantly transported to its home plane, where it will, eventually, reform. The length of the process is dependant on the power of the outsider -- more powerful ones (like balors, tulani, or ultroloths) take longer to create, someties as long as a century. Most of the time, this will not be an issue, since the average campaign lasts far shorter than a decade it might take an efreeti to reform, but in certain campaigns, even the knowledge of the process might beenough to give players (characters?) a pause.

Regards.

 

[boolean]

Cite the rule that says so and I'll beleive you.

From the Efreet description in the Monster Manual:

"Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead."

So, if the Efreet feels that it has been exploited or abused, it will get its revenge.

 

[Votan]

From the Efreet description in the Monster Manual:

"Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead."

So, if the Efreet feels that it has been exploited or abused, it will get its revenge.

This is an excellent point. In general, as a race of beings, you figure that they'd have found a way to get around planar binding. Heck, it might be where the infamous hatred of servitude first showed up.

 

[Felix]

From the Efreet description in the Monster Manual:

"Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead."

So, if the Efreet feels that it has been exploited or abused, it will get its revenge.

*sigh*

If you offer them 100,000gp in return for the wishes, will they grant them to you or not? The point of that question was to show that it is not necessarily always the case that they will refuse to grant wishes, which was the claim I was responding to. It does not mean that they can't be surly about it.

Get it?

 

[Derren]

*sigh*

If you offer them 100,000gp in return for the wishes, will they grant them to you or not? The point of that question was to show that it is not necessarily always the case that they will refuse to grant wishes, which was the claim I was responding to. It does not mean that they can't be surly about it.

Get it?

Or even better, offer to use one wish on whatever the Effret wants. As it can't use those wishes for himself this is a rather good deal and you don't loose anything.

 

[Pickford]

I may be weighing in late, but I found this thread compelling.

A few points in the PCs favor:

1) Planar Binding - "Casting this spell atttempts a dangerous act: To lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for it's freedom." (PHB pg. 262) - This means the creature is screwed if it wants to be obstinant it just stays in a trap on another plane slowly dying from lack of nutrition.

2) "The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual's proper name in casting the spell." (also PHB pg. 262) My note: This spell can only target outsiders or elementals, so PCs CAN NOT be planar bound, unless it's a druid or monk or shapechanged wizard at the time.

3) The target gets a will save to have the spell fail entirely (never summoned), and once 'in' the trap can escape through 3 methods: A) Spell Resistance (disabled if a diagram is used, PHB pg. 250), B) Dimensional Travel (negated through a dimensional anchor, PHB pg. 250), or C) Opposed Charisma check (allowed only once a day and made 'much' more difficult via the diagram) which factors in 1/2 the CL and the Charisma bonus of the player. "If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare."

4) "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The DM assigns your check a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward." - My input: In otherwords, the PC can say 'You monster provide me with exactly this outcome which I desire and you will be set free instantly. If the outcome is 'not' as I desire you remain bound, possibly for eternity. Your call.' The point being, sure it's 'possible' to refuse...once or twice...but against someone with high charisma eventually the monster will lose an opposed check.

5) Impossible or Unreasonable demands: An impossible demand is something the monster can't do, an unreasonable demand? Suicide comes to mind. i.e. Kill yourself, Go stand in that prismatic wall and let down your SR/deliberately fail your save....

Wishes? Both possible and reasonable when the alternative is eternal imprisonment or death. Very reasonable in those circumstances. For everyone who's suggesting giving the caller a genie without any wishes left for the day....planar binding can last 'indefinitely'. I suspect any PC willing to go to these lengths would simply nettle the genie to do it the next day...or the next...and so on.

6) For the poster indicating 3 wishes is 3 different tasks...not if you say that the task it to grant you 3 wishes. Similar to saying the task is to guard location X for 100 days....1 day doesn't equal 1 task.

7) For the people thinking the genie will plane shift back for revenge: Only if they get VERY lucky. Plane Shift (PHB 262) - "Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination." So yeah, basically no chance of finding the PC specifically for revenge. But hey, let's say they get 5 miles from the PC, miraculously, and manage to say 'Now I'm going to plane shift you!!!' The spell gives both SR and a will save, the highest possible save for a mage (Granted, all this assumes that somehow the Genie totally gets the drop on the PC who doesn't react to interrupt the ability through damage, or doing something horrible to the monster...very unlikely)

And if worse comes to worse, for 'one' of the wishes, the player asks what the Genie's true name is. Now they leave the monster with a parting thought: If you ever consider getting revenge, I will bring you back and bind you for eternity within a gem. (Or better, burn some wishes to alter the Genie and put a geas on him preventing him from seeking revenge directly or indirectly....MAGIC!)

(Oooh, or better, geas him to return the next day and provide you with more wishes!) Note: PC isn't using wish to get more wishes, but using Geas to get more wishes (or some other compulsion).

8) For the person saying the wish might tax the player instead of the genie: Not in RAW. The genie doesn't pay any cost, and the PC isn't actually casting anything. That would be like having my casting a heal spell take away your spell slot, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

9) Inherent bonuses are cast in succession (i.e. round by round) so if you just have the genie create scrolls of wish it could be done by the player over the course of two planar bindings. Note: If a DM tried to sub the same genie (somehow) a smart player would just kill it (permanently because it was called) and then do a third casting.

As a parting query: Why so much effort to punish incredibly creative play? More likely, you would have to do a knowledge check to know the creature the PC wants to summon even exists (i.e. Do you know what Genie's are?) and do you know they grant wishes? etc... If a PC can clear the hoops, they earned the reward.

Edit:Many have cited this whole meta-game idea of Genies as a race figuring out a way out of planar binding...to this I would say that is unlikely given that genies are notorious for being magical indentured servants in lore. i.e. Powerful people routinely make them slaves for things like the 3 wishes, it just happens.

 

[MDK]

A very interesting thread! Here's my 2 cents:
First, the whole Can\t grant wishes to genies bit always struck me as very odd indeed, and got houseruled out ages ago.
As for the OP's question, assuming the PCs are nice about and willing to pay, I have no poblems with it, they can rinse and repeat as often as they please. I WOULD put the price at roughly 27500gp per statpoint (same as a statbooster book), and since a level 12 PC is assumed to have roughly 88000 gp this means they'd be able to get at most a +3 to a single stat, at the price of loosing most if not all of their other gear: Tim the Enchanter now has an inherent +3 to Int, his spellbook, and a spare set of underwear. And this is with me being nice and giving them full value for their equipment, too (actually I'd let them bargain for a 50% discount on the spell, and accept magic items as payment at the regular half-price sales value so they can feel pleased with themselves for driving a hard bargain). Meanwhile, Mr Genie earned a boatload of money in under 10 minutes (including bargaining time), and with any luck got to enjoy watching the mortals squirm as they try to decide what items to give up in payment, too. Win-win.

If the PCs are NOT nice about it, Mr Genie will grant their wishes, and first thing in the morning will spend one wish to UNDO his wishing from the previous day, and if they annoyed him enough, may choose to spend 1 or 2 more wishes to make their lives miserable (if I hadn't ruled they can grant their own wishes he'd be using a helper to let him do so anyway). If they REALLY made him angry, welll, there's always 3 more wishes tomorrow...
And yes, I'd give the party a few skill checks to realise this before they start their abusive actions, as well as the notion that this kind of extortion strictly for personal gain is neither Good nor even Neutral, and will be taken into account regarding their alignment.

 

[Pickford]

If the PCs are NOT nice about it, Mr Genie will grant their wishes, and first thing in the morning will spend one wish to UNDO his wishing from the previous day, and if they annoyed him enough, may choose to spend 1 or 2 more wishes to make their lives miserable (if I hadn't ruled they can grant their own wishes he'd be using a helper to let him do so anyway). If they REALLY made him angry, welll, there's always 3 more wishes tomorrow...
And yes, I'd give the party a few skill checks to realise this before they start their abusive actions, as well as the notion that this kind of extortion strictly for personal gain is neither Good nor even Neutral, and will be taken into account regarding their alignment.

I suspect this is exactly the reason that Genie's cannot cast wish for Genie's. Anything that could cast a level 9 spell 3/day at level 12 would be a 'much' higher CR than 8.

Incidentally: For an automatic win planar binding any character with Moment of Prescience can add up to +25 to their opposed check making it essentially impossible for anything with an equal or lesser Charisma bonus to argue against them. i.e. Even if the bonus on making the Efreeti grant you it's 3 wishes a day is +0, it's impossible for him to refuse even if you only have a +2 Charisma bonus (matching his)

Edit:

By the by, the prep time and investment on these spells is not insignificant:
1) Moment of Prescience: Luck 8, Sor/Wiz 8 (8th level spell); 1 standard action; Components: Verbal, Somatic.
2) Magic Circle against Evil: Clr 3, Good 3, Sor/Wiz 3; 3 hours 20 minutes to draw directed inward with a diagram (take 20 for prep); Components: Verbal, Somatic, Material (a little powdered silver to trace the circle)
3) Planar Binding: Sor/Wiz 6 or Planar Binding, Greater: Sor/Wiz 8; 10 minutes; Components: Verbal, Somatic.
4) Dimensional Anchor: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4; 1 standard action; Components: Verbal, Somatic

So if a Sor/Wiz (Note Clerics lack two of the key spells required to even do this) wants to get this to work for the 3 wishes, they have to expend a combined spell levels of at least 21 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 6th, and 1 8th level spell (possibly 2)) and as much as 31 spell levels (more than the value of 3 wishes! (i.e. 27)) in essentially immediate succession and it would take approximately 3 hours and 50 minutes of totally uninterrupted time.

Not something you're doing every day and not something you can 'easily' do out in the wild or when there's a larger quest going on that involves either a serious time or life threat. (Though who knows how important it would be to get those wishes? Maybe that's what is needed to find the villain, save the village, etc...)

I suppose forgetting these costs exist is typical. Similar to people using identify on all the items in a horde, but forgetting that identify works on a single target and takes 1 hour per cast.

Incidentally, if your PC is truly paranoid, they can cast a Mordekainen's Private Sanctum first to prevent any divination and provide immunity to detect thoughts, and then shapechange, polymorph or alter self so they resemble someone else so even 'if' the Efreeti was inclined towards seeking revenge, they would never find the correct party.

To summarize: There are simply enough spells that a truly wily PC with the proper prep time can become totally invulnerable to retaliation by virtually anything, the question is...did they prepare?

Double edit:

Any Sor/Wiz worth their salt would have given themselves permanent see invisibility by the tiem they decide to start pulling these shenanigans. (10th level minimum)

 

[MarkB]

I don't see Efreeti putting up with this sort of imposition for very long. The way I'd picture it is that, the day after the PCs cast their Binding, the Efreet (who's done some research in the meantime) appears in front of their deadliest nemesis, grins, and says "Good day, sir. I wish to offer my services and grant your three fondest wishes. My price is a small one - I ask only that the wishes involve these beings, whom I believe you know." (Shows him an image of the PCs).

 

[MDK]

I suspect this is exactly the reason that Genie's cannot cast wish for Genie's. Anything that could cast a level 9 spell 3/day at level 12 would be a 'much' higher CR than 8.

Given how extremely easy this limitation is to circumvent, I kinda doubt balance was an issue here, although I'll readily admit I have no idea whatsoever what ELSE the reasoning may have been.
I do stand with my point however that I'd simply allow the OP's scheme to work if the players pay up, and only get nasty if they don't. YMMV.