Planar binding = unlimited wishes?

[Infiniti2000]

Is it possible for a Planar Bound genie to use 3 Wishes to grant a +3 inherent bonus? Yes or no?

Talking about a specious argument...it's possible for a genie to just show up, without planar binding, and just grant 3 wishes a day for the next 10 years.

Anything is possible. Is that what you're looking to hear? Yes, it's possible to gate in Orcus and ask him nicely for the Ruby Rod. It's possible he would just give it to you and grant you all of his powers.

There, there's but a fraction of the power you can achieve in a gate spell, just because it's possible.

 

[Felix]

Talking about a specious argument...it's possible for a genie to just show up, without planar binding, and just grant 3 wishes a day for the next 10 years.

Specious? Hardly; it shows that there is nothing whatsoever that prevents the genie from doing so, were he willing. If it's possible for the genie to show up and grant 3 wishes, consecutively, then how can you claim it is impossible to persuade him to do so?

Not probable, maybe.
Not cheap, surely.
But also not impossible, which you claimed.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Specious? Hardly; it shows that there is nothing whatsoever that prevents the genie from doing so, were he willing.

That's the whole point, though, isn't it? He's not willing. You can't change the parameters of the debate and then expect everyone to agree.

Yes, it's possible to get three wishes out of the efreeti, and you don't even need any spells or anything. Just yell out loud and hope there's a friendly one nearby. Probable? No. But however infinitesimally improbable, it's still possible. I call shenanigans on that line of thinking.

If it's possible for the genie to show up and grant 3 wishes, consecutively, then how can you claim it is impossible to persuade him to do so?

Go back to why I said it's impossible, which is because of the method used: planar binding. The wording is about services and IMO one wish == one service.

In other words, for you to just discount the service wording in the spell description, you might as well discount any other part of the spell that doesn't suit you.

 

[Felix]

He's not willing.

Cite the rule that says so and I'll beleive you.

Planar Binding does not restrict further negotiations for other rewards. Like you said, if the genie were willing, he could grant wishes every day; would he not be willing for sufficient reward?

IMO one wish == one service.

The ability says: 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only).

He can't "grant three wishes", he can "grant up to three" once. His ability to grant wishes is an ability to grant up to three. This peculiarity of the efreet's ability gives this ruling credence, even if you wish to disregard the fact that the genie would be able to do so, properly induced.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Cite the rule that says so and I'll beleive you.

Besides the word "trap" sprinkled throughout the spell description like pepperoni on a pizza, try:

Saving Throw: Will negates

Planar Binding does not restrict further negotiations for other rewards. Like you said, if the genie were willing, he could grant wishes every day; would he not be willing for sufficient reward?

If you want me to agree with you that requiring a reward is another method for negating the 3 free wishes, okay. That's not what this discussion is about though. Can the caster gain even a single FREE wish, i.e. not paid for with a reward?

The ability says: 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only).

He can't "grant three wishes", he can "grant up to three" once. His ability to grant wishes is an ability to grant up to three. This peculiarity of the efreet's ability gives this ruling credence, ...

So, whatever number (0, 1, 2, or 3) the genie chooses/has available, is equal to a single service? I can see the logic in that claim. So, can the caller compel all three wishes? How does he do that? Do all efreet have 3 available or maybe some have only 2?

 

[Felix]

Besides the word "trap" sprinkled throughout the spell description like pepperoni on a pizza, try:

Saving Throw: Will negates

Do you suggest that because the efreet can resist the spell and reject any offers, he necessarily must?

The efreet may be induced to be willing to grant the PCs 3 wishes. And if he may, then +1 is not the maximum bonus to a stat PCs can obtain, which you claimed.

If you want me to agree with you that requiring a reward is another method for negating the 3 free wishes, okay. That's not what this discussion is about though. Can the caster gain even a single FREE wish, i.e. not paid for with a reward?

I was under the impression that this discussion was over whether or not a caster could get a +3 to his ability scores by means of Planar Binding.

Disregarding balance, I think the PCs have found a sound and valid way to obtain +3 to all their stats, if not +5.

No, definitely not. How do you refute my post above? It's at most +1 to all stats.

The post you responded to, post #15, specified that the PCs would either have to use threats (which would have their own particular kind of price tag) or a monetary exchange. Both of those are valid inducements to make the efreet willing to use all 3 of his wishes, whether or not the efreet agrees. I never did claim that the exchange would be costless.

 

[Felix]

So, whatever number (0, 1, 2, or 3) the genie chooses/has available, is equal to a single service? I can see the logic in that claim. So, can the caller compel all three wishes? How does he do that? Do all efreet have 3 available or maybe some have only 2?

It seems that efreet either have 3 available or none. If their 1/day ability has not been used that day, they may grant up to three wishes. If their 1/day ability has been used, they have none.

How does the caster do that? "Grant me three wishes." might work. Depends upon the DM and the negotiation with the efreet.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do you suggest that because the efreet can resist the spell ...he necessarily must?

Yes. I do not agree that an efreeti would choose to fail the saving throw. Thus, he is never willing.

I was under the impression that this discussion was over whether or not a caster could get a +3 to his ability scores by means of Planar Binding.

I reread all of Dr. Awkward's posts and you're right. He never once mentioned not spending material wealth, just not XP. My apologies.

 

[Felix]

Yes. I do not agree that an efreeti would choose to fail the saving throw. Thus, he is never willing.

Perhaps we should specify exactly what he would never be willing to do, but since:

I reread all of Dr. Awkward's posts and you're right. He never once mentioned not spending material wealth, just not XP. My apologies.

I suppose we arn't really disagreeing upon anything substantial.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What is going on here, I believe, is that the OP is trying to figure out what the consequences of the PC's actions will be. When they do stuff, stuff happens back. Just like a group of PC's who decide to kill eveyone in the tavern because they.. I don't know.. can't get free rooms. City Guards come to arrest them and it escalates from there because actions have reactions.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The group is largely on the Chaotic Neutral side, with a few tending toward evil, and they're just hitting that "drunk with power" phase that usually comes along around 7th to 10th level. With city guards, it would be a pretty easy scenario to resolve. PCs wreck the place, guards come, PCs defeat guards, guards call in the "special forces" of high-level characters that sit around waiting for this stuff to happen, PCs get handed their asses. It's the circle of life...

However, this sort of scenario isn't quite as easy to follow the chain of causation on.

Now, given that Gate makes it an even easier prospect to have an efreet do your bidding, there must be a reason that high-level casters don't just pump their ability scores and wish for all the magic items in the book. What's a few thousand XP compared to the mighty machine of doom you'll become, eh?

I figure, that there must be some entity, like the Claviger of Wyre, that enforces on behalf of efreet. Something of near-godlike power, capable of chewing up and spitting out any non-epic character, and quite a few epic ones. The efreet made a pact with this creature ages ago, and it responds to violations of the rules. The rules, of course, being that the efreet decide who gets wishes, and that these wishes serve their own ends.

Such a creature must exist, or there'd be no end to the free wishes by high-level characters.