Planar binding = unlimited wishes?

[Three_Haligonians]

Whenever I hear little DM-lesson fantasies like this, I have a fantasy of my own. I have a fantasy of being a player who just bulls ahead and lets the DM destroy my PC. And then afterwards, I'd ask him,

"But who really lost more here, oh DM? I can make a new character in an hour or so, and it will be fun and interesting to do that. You, on the other hand, have to deal with the disruption in your campaign and ending the story we were collectively telling on a sour note. You have to be the one to worry about fitting my new character in and abandoning all the plot threads from my old character. All because you refused to address an out of game problem, out of game. So good luck with that."

Ok, first of all, not everyone plays to "tell a collective story". Second of all, if this were about "punishing" the players for trying to break the system there doesn't need to be any big rigamarole... the DM can simply say a cinder block flies out of the sky and smacks the PC in the head - killing him instantly.

What is going on here, I believe, is that the OP is trying to figure out what the consequences of the PC's actions will be. When they do stuff, stuff happens back. Just like a group of PC's who decide to kill eveyone in the tavern because they.. I don't know.. can't get free rooms. City Guards come to arrest them and it escalates from there because actions have reactions.

As to the actual point, I agree with the idea that if the PCs attempt to strike a deal with the efreet - they can get their wish (although I agree Infiniti2000, they can only get a +1 out of the deal). If they decide to go down the extortion road, well then, that's when the reaction comes in.

If they really push for +3 or more. Have the Efreet create whatever tome or manual they need (from the DMG). Follow the rules for creating magic items under the wish spell entry and have the XP come out of the character. Chances are, they will drop a level or two which may fix your "but my PCs are too strong for an efreet to be a threat" problem.

"Oh, hey, someone's working against us. [Commune] it's those efreet that we made cast all those Wish spells. [Scry] [Teleport] [repeat] Problem solved, and we get XP. Yay!

See, this is the same thing as the tavern example from above. Eventually something -stronger- than the PCs is going to come looking for answers... or worse.

 

[Moorcrys]

I don't know, why is the efreeti being such a dick about it? Is he under some sort of compulsion to thwart the PCs or what?

I would think that an efreeti would be happy to have use of his wishes as the service requested. It's a heck of a lot safer than "go fight that giant monster" and he can get it over and done with a lot quicker too. Throw in some minor magic item as a bonus, and it's a pretty sweet deal for him.

Seriously, would you expect the same reaction from the efreeti if the PCs called it up and asked it to fight a monster? How about to serve as their butler for a day when they're having a feast, to impress the neighboring king? What about to spend an hour conversing with the party wizard about the elemental planes so that he can increase his Knowledge: Planes ranks? All of these things are way more of a hassle and time drain than using his wishes.

Is there any service that the PCs can request that won't result in the Efreeti coming back for revenge?

I guess the original post tipped me off... where the PCs threaten a lawful evil being with death unless he does what they say, with no compensation for his 'gift' other than his life. Seems like a pretty good reason for the efreet to be a 'dick' about it, don't you think?

There are plenty of ways to negotiate for services from a powerful being, that isn't what this particular group seems to be interested in. And there is fair payment as well. This particular group seems to be interested in taking advantage of the rules to empower themselves -- in essence summoning and then threatening a bunch of wish-granting creatures that they know they're stronger than to get at least +3 inherent bonuses to all of their stats... without paying for it with experience or money. They're in essence using a lower level spell to gain multiple castings of a 9th level spell... higher since they do not pay the XP cost. And once they've gotten their stat boosts, will it stop there? Are you kidding? If I got away with that, I would have multiple planar binding spells on hand for any occasion, since I could bypass almost any obstace or have thousands of gold pieces or any number or magical items at my disposal simply by summoning an efreet and threatening it for wishes. It's a game breaker, and a loophole, and people are simply trying to come up with creative ways to close it without endless conflict and without you having to just say, "You can't do it because you can't do it."

So you either take it for granted that anyone of the appropriate level who has access to planar binding spells has access to unlimited wishes (or at the very least three per day), or you assume that intelligent beings who have knowledge of spells like this and who have a long history of having to deal with mortals trying to screw them in this way have devised many, many ways to protect themselves from such greedy tactics. I lean towards the latter assumption.

 

[Felix]

Seems like a pretty good reason for the efreet to be a 'dick' about it, don't you think?

I believe that in his post Wolfwood was responding to suggestions for perverting Wish regardless of the prize offered to the genie, and not in the specific case of the PCs threatening the genie's life.

 

[Moorcrys]

I believe that in his post Wolfwood was responding to suggestions for perverting Wish regardless of the prize offered to the genie, and not in the specific case of the PCs threatening the genie's life.

He was actually responding to my post... and I was responding to the original. Or at least I'm the one he chose to quote.

 

[Felix]

He was actually responding to my post... and I was responding to the original. Or at least I'm the one he chose to quote.

I went back and re-read; you have the right of it.

And your addendum to that post clears it up fairly well: as long as the PCs make nice with the genie, the genie won't have reason to be a prick.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think if PCs wanted to do this in my game, the first time the Efreet would say "fair game, I'll grant you the wishes. But be warned and look up the history of azhad al-mahood and fritz behinger".

Looking up the names (or know:arcane or bardic knowledge or legend lore etc) will reveal that these are people who attempted to bind efreet after efreet to 'mine' them for wishes, and it raised the ire of the rulers of the efreet who exacted a terrible toll on them, their families, friends and pets.

Thus the PCs get three wishes for being clever and taking some risks with the spell, but have had fair warning that that when people have tried to abuse the ability in the past there have been no survivors.

Cheers

 

[Thurbane]

I think it is fair to assume that if this is a valid tactic, then surely in the course of your camapign world's history, some other spellcasting NPCs had exactly the same idea. Perhaps some of them even got away with it.

But you can rest assured that the Efreeti and there allies would have long ago "wised up" to this kind of abuse, and put countermeasures in place...

Perhaps they have a pact with a group of powerful immortal beings on the Prime Material or other plane (Liches, Red Dragons, Demons, Githyanki etc.) that in return for an allotment of Wishes or other service each century, they can call of them to extinguish any spellcaster silly enough to try this "old chestnut".

To be fair to your players, give them a Knowledge: the PLanes, Arcana or History check to have heard about other casters who had the same idea, and were then never seen again...

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I think if PCs wanted to do this in my game, the first time the Efreet would say "fair game, I'll grant you the wishes. But be warned and look up the history of azhad al-mahood and fritz behinger".

Looking up the names (or know:arcane or bardic knowledge or legend lore etc) will reveal that these are people who attempted to bind efreet after efreet to 'mine' them for wishes, and it raised the ire of the rulers of the efreet who exacted a terrible toll on them, their families, friends and pets.

Thus the PCs get three wishes for being clever and taking some risks with the spell, but have had fair warning that that when people have tried to abuse the ability in the past there have been no survivors.

Cheers

I like this answer...

Apart from the bold bit. The worst stuff always happens to the survivors.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like Plane Sailing's answer too. And I might also exact a price sometime down the road; a valuable magic item or gem disappears, in it's place a note (written in molten lead on a sheet of asbestos paper) that says "For services rendered: remember azhad al-mahood and fritz behinger!" The time when a PC dies would be a good time to collect the debt from any treasure he might currently possess; if he's dead, that could be the last time to collect. If the party gets high enough level (or rich enough) to be able to get legitimate wishes, this could be another way of repaying the debt.

Actually this could be very useful in balancing treasure and magic items. Side quests could also be demanded as payment; if used in moderation this could help drive the storyline along.

 

[PallidPatience]

Also remember that, at your option, Planar Binding could work on the PCs if cast from another plane.