"Planar Handbook" - completlely useless?

[Incenjucar]

It isn't slander, it is a logical conclusion of your line of thought. I've explained it at least twice on this thread already but for your benefit i will do so again.

You seem to have an issue with the difference between 'logical result' and 'intent'. You can argue one, certainly, you cannot argue the other unless you, sir, are a fricking psion. Whatever would happen if WotC did one of the options desired by those PSers I base my arguments on, we have no interest or intention for it to be detrimental to anyone else. We are not quite as sadistic as that, for the most part.

It is UNNESCESSARY for any PS fan to have to explicitly demand that PS be brought back at the expense of the current setting, because it is implicitly AN INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE that if PS was brought back it would be at the expense of the current setting.

No, the only thing this would do is mean that WotC puts out two series of books, which would dilute sales since people would have a choice, and generally prefer to have one or the other, and not both. WotC chooses to have half and half, and hope that it produces better sales than one or the other. Understanding this, PSers, as I have mentioned, wouldn't really mind if WotC just left PS the heck alone, instead of picking at it like some child who hated the parsley floating in her soup.

Do you understand?
To say "sure we want PS to become the "default" setting but that doesn't mean we want to force it on anyone or make them stop producing the other planes stuff" is an absurdity, it is like saying "sure we want the Yes side to win the referendum, but we don't want the No side to lose". It really doesn't matter whether you want it or not, "berk", if you win, all the non-PS fans lose.

You do realize that, for the most part, Planescape INCLUDES everything in D&D? Are you suggesting that nobody will be able to take the planar information and just skip on Sigil and the 'extra' elemental planes, and, depending how things were done, just keep to the DMG's version how things work? The reason PSers aren't happy about 3e's version is because it drastically alters the composition of the planes (for instance, only Greyhawk is connected to the Great Ring cosmology anymore), and that, by using Sigil and things introduced by PS, it's got Planescape stuff ANYWAYS.

Guess what, Planescape Homestyle IS the default version. We would prefer it if they made something for pre-PS and PS fans alike, that was largely seperate, rather than some sad mish-mash.

You can't have both.

We never said our hopes were realistic, now did we?

To want PS to be "the" planar line (and there is no other way for Wotc to do it: Wizards cannot afford to have TWO planar lines), is to DE FACTO want PS to be the ONLY planar line.

Are you suggesting that, by wishing peace on earth, I want every living thing to be dead? That's the only way it would actually happen in the real world. I wish a bunch of early-twenties Asian hotties with IQs above 150 would come streaming in to the room to drag me off to live on an island with them, so does that mean that I want a bunch of cute girls to be kidnapped at gun point and forced to do so, considering that's the only way such a lovely thing could ever happen?

Do you get that now?
I don't need to show you any website with a PS fan talking about how much he wants to take away the current Planar setting from its fans, the mere fact that he wants PS to be the official WoTC setting, or published at all, is enough to mean that DE FACTO that is what he wants to see happening.

Right. Blow up the world for world peace. Gotcha.

Some people here on Enworld had proposed that Wizards could just make a single one-shot hardcover, or give PS to a third party. Wizards can't really afford to do either:
1. Doing a one-shot would lead to unimaginable confusion among the fans. Fans will be wondering why all of a sudden there are all these elements in the planes that weren't in the previous books, and they'll be wondering why these aren't in the future books. You'll essentially be creating two canons that serves no purpose other than to placate a tiny group of hardcore fanboys.

UNIMAGINABLE confusion? How stupid do you think the average 3er is? I realize humanity is sadly lacking in brains, but anyone who can type can figure out "Lady of Pain Symbol=Planescape Product" and "No LoP Symbol=Not Planescape Product". And here I thought I had a low opinion of humanity.

Tiny? Where are your numbers? If you aint got the stats, shove it back up where you pulled it out from. There's obviously enough PS fans for them to put Planescape material -all over 3e-. Want me to start counting the things that came from PS, and only PS? Let me count the planetouched...

2. Contracting out the license would be even worse because then you'd have someone directly competing with Wizards for what is very close to the same setting. Currently other companies do Planar books but none of them are allowed to use sigil, the great wheel, etc etc. If Wizards contracted it out, then they'd have another company directly using the same setting in competition with Wizard's own books. The only reason Wizards might want to do this is if they were to stop making books on the Planes altogether, which would bring us back to the DE FACTO exclusion of all non-PS fans.

Nisarg

Again, PS fans would be quite happy if WotC just left PS alone. But they won't. They keep saying they don't want it, but always come crawling back for more. As it is, the only confusion that's occuring is when people see so much contradictory information between 2e and 3e that could have been avoided with a teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit of sense and/or research, or, possibly, a lack of malice. But, alas, this is from the same group of designers who let a personal issue with PASTRIES get in the way of a monster entry.

 

[Sir Elton]

Boy Mystery Man, your rant has turned into a 150 post monster thread. What are you going to do now?



Actually I can't believe this rant has stayed alive and attracted so many posters for so long. I guess when somebody on Enworld states their opinion, everyone has to post theirs.

Me? I'm just happy that Wizards of the Coast is going back to the Adventure Market. Maybe Necromancer Games and Wizards of the Coast will try to out compete each other and other companies will get on the act.

 

[Mystery Man]

Boy Mystery Man, your rant has turned into a 150 post monster thread. What are you going to do now?

Strong opinions get strong reactions, _blank_ happens.

Me? I'm just happy that Wizards of the Coast is going back to the Adventure Market. Maybe Necromancer Games and Wizards of the Coast will try to out compete each other and other companies will get on the act.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

I'm not so sure that going back to the adventure market is such a great idea. We'll see.
I would like to see the adventures that are published give the controls to the DM rather that have a linear plot for the DM to read and the players to follow. That linear plot that reads from start to finish with encounters in between just isnt working IMHO. An ideal adventure module for me would be very open ended with the tools for the DM to create the encounters and things like that around the plot.
That would include a list of NPCs and their motivations. A dungeon, a wilderness area, a city and whatever else with a list of things to put in them rather than a static set of encouters and EL's. Five or six examples of major events with the ability to plop tem in anywhere the DM sees fit. And a plot to wrap it all around.

 

[Sir Elton]

[QUOTE=Mystery Man]Strong opinions get strong reactions, _blank_ happens.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

I'm not so sure that going back to the adventure market is such a great idea. We'll see.

I would like to see the adventures that are published give the controls to the DM rather that have a linear plot for the DM to read and the players to follow. That linear plot that reads from start to finish with encounters in between just isnt working IMHO. An ideal adventure module for me would be very open ended with the tools for the DM to create the encounters and things like that around the plot.

That would include a list of NPCs and their motivations. A dungeon, a wilderness area, a city and whatever else with a list of things to put in them rather than a static set of encouters and EL's. Five or six examples of major events with the ability to plop tem in anywhere the DM sees fit. And a plot to wrap it all around.[/QUOTE] Like a mini-campaign? It shouldn't be too hard to do in a d20 modern, d20 future, or d20 fantasy vein. Lets see, the old ICE adventure "Tales of the Loremasters" gave a listing of adventure sites and how the NPCs around those adventure sites would react to a given situation.

Lets take Hellgate Keep for instance. Someone like you can redetail a few sites around Hellgate Keep; and maybe a bit of the Hellgate Keep dungeon, and then actually state in the text that the adventure sites provide your own path for adventure.

Another way to do it is to provide an adventure in a traditional format, and then detail sites of interesting goodness around the main site. I could do that with Neverwinter or even Silverymoon. The worst thing to do, I think, is to write really bad ones or to say that you are going to do it and then get chicken feet and then don't. To compete with Necromancer Games, Wizards has to up the bar I think, to make their adventures better than the competition.

 

[Incenjucar]

Agreed. Especially right now, with so many people upset (though I don't agree they should be) that the DM has so little control, adventure modules that a computer could just read off to players really isn't needed. Maps, motives, ideas, suggestions, and a nice thick list of what happens if characters do X (so the DM doesn't HAVE to think up EVERYTHING on the fly if the players get, GASP, creative). As important, an adventure that made sense would be great, as opposed to, say, a dungeon right next to a city that been occupied by five dozen unrelated encounters.

 

[Sir Elton]

. . . And a nice thick list of what happens if characters do X (so the DM doesn't HAVE to think up EVERYTHING on the fly if the players get, GASP, creative).

Improbable.

 

[Incenjucar]

Yeah, I know. The day they make an adventure that I would consider worth purchasing is the day I took five tabs of acid and melted my brain.

 

[Nisarg]

Yeah, I know. The day they make an adventure that I would consider worth purchasing is the day I took five tabs of acid and melted my brain.

Five tabs will not melt your brain.
It will, however, leave you permanently unable to be a normal productive member of society. And make you very permanently aware of human mortality.

Nisarg

 

[Incenjucar]

"Melt" is along the lines of "Freeze" in the term "Brain Freeze". Either way, Illithids prefer it otherwise.

 

[Piratecat]

So that would put the dirty tricks score at 2-0 to you.

I have also not insulted any individual. I have made up not a single fact, and I have not misrepresented. However you have done all three by accusing me of these things.

Nisarg, perhaps you missed my caution on the previous page. Now I'll be a bit more specific: quit with the argument, please. I'd like folks to stop insulting each other -- yes, even if they think they're "right" and the other person is slandering them. Frankly, that's not what this thread is about, and I'd like it to stay on topic. We like to keep this place fun and friendly, and that means not picking any fights (and giving the benefit of the doubt if someone disagrees with you.)

Moderator email addresses are listed in the Meta forum. If this is somehow a problem for anyone, feel free to email me.