Planes Above, sucks to be good.

Otterscrubber

First Post
Just got a copy of Planes Above. Man is it depressing. Apparently in 4e cosmology now even if you are good, you are stuck in the astral and not guaranteed to get to the domain of your deity, even if you are devout. And there is nothing your deity can do about it. How sad is that. You are simply an outsider. Eeking whatever existence you can out of the astral barrens, usually within eyeshot of where you were supposed to go to. No wonder Asmodeus is kicking butt.
 

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4e cosmology is whatever you want it to be... just like 3e and 2e cosmology. Maybe the astral islands are a form of purgatory for those who "almost" believed in their preferred deity, or had some fairly major transgressions. They are given a glimpse of what they might have had, and made to reflect on their shortcomings. In time, they may (or may not) be given a chance to join their deity's realm.

Besides, you think that's bad? How about Forgotten Realms treatment of any sentient being that doesn't worship a god - trapped permanently in a "Wall of Souls" surrounding the realm of Kelemvor, god of the dead? Worship, or be eternally damned.

[...which, for the record, I find a little offensive, so it has no place in any Realms campaign that I run...]
 

[...which, for the record, I find a little offensive, so it has no place in any Realms campaign that I run...]

To be fair, the argument for atheism or agnosticism or religious hypocrisy loses its entire basis when every so often the gods physically appear on the world and do monumental things like devour all assassins everywhere, or go about starting new nations, or my personal favorite... dying and then causing magic to unravel in such a major way that your universe interposes and swaps part of itself with another parallel universe while a magic plague that is composed entirely of unravelled magic sweeps across the world infecting anything it damn well wants to.

It's very irrational to believe the gods don't exist when there are children of races that you can easily meet who remember what happens when a god gets up and dies. It's not like the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles is ancient history.
 

Yes, it is hard to be agnostic in most campaign settings. Sometimes I think people take a little too much real world baggage into games.
 

Yes, it is hard to be agnostic in most campaign settings. Sometimes I think people take a little too much real world baggage into games.

I would posit that it's easier to be an atheist in a typical D&D campaign than an agnostic, based on the fact that one could easily say, "These guys aren't really gods, they're just superpowered astral creatures!" It's a lot harder to not know (agnosticism) when one can consult supernatural forces to find out.
 

It depends what's involved in ending up in the wall.

I agree that it's very hard to say that "the gods don't exist" in the FR
but it's not entirely unbelievable that a character could believe in the gods but not actually worship any of them specifically.
A wizard could well believe in all the gods but not actually worship Mystra (version IV isn't it now?)
 

I would posit that it's easier to be an atheist in a typical D&D campaign than an agnostic, based on the fact that one could easily say, "These guys aren't really gods, they're just superpowered astral creatures!" It's a lot harder to not know (agnosticism) when one can consult supernatural forces to find out.

That's actually a gnostic, not an athiest. An athiest disbelieves in their existence, a gnostic believes they exist but not as a diety.

And I'd posit neither view is rational in a world where the major troubles of your time directly result from a god dying in a specific spot with specific witnesses who are still very much alive and can be scryed at to see if they are lying.

'So, prove Gods exist.'
'Well, you know how magic stopped working right, and has never worked right since?'
'Yeah?'
'Mystra died.'
'That's superstition.'
'No no, Bob over there's a Chosen of Mystra, and he stopped bein' all Chosen at the same time. He saw it.'
'Everyone's a damn Chosen of Mystra.'
'Not any more. That's a lot of witnesses to the event, don't you think?'


It depends what's involved in ending up in the wall.

I agree that it's very hard to say that "the gods don't exist" in the FR
but it's not entirely unbelievable that a character could believe in the gods but not actually worship any of them specifically.
A wizard could well believe in all the gods but not actually worship Mystra (version IV isn't it now?)

Mystra's dead dead. Like, dead for good dead. There's been no replacement. That's why wizards can't prepare ninth level spells any more, and why anyone can do a ritual.

You can believe in all the gods in FR... and should!... and even give prayers to them from time to time.

Thing is, belief in the gods entails worship. If you believe Aumanator is the god of the sun, then you'd ask for a blessing now and then. It doesn't require a lot of effort, but it does require some action.

If someone 'believes' in the gods but does not actually do anything to make them relevant, then no god's proxy is going to come for him in the fugue plane because he's done nothing to get their attention. That's the bit that gets you on the wall. If you have the attention of many gods, well, that's not so bad.

The reason people get stuck up on the wall isn't some spiteful 'Hey, you sucked at this whole worshiping gods on Toril thing.' It that all the dead go to the Fugue Plane, and they wait for the proxies of a god to come by and get them out of there. If they're not picked up, because they didn't bother to get noticed through a sincere prayer now and then... well... up on the wall they go.

'But isn't atheism a choice!?!"

Actually, Kelemvor believed that. When he started off as the God of the Dead, he let the good side of him prevail. He wouldn't stick people up on that wall.

The problem with that is that the forces of Toril ARE run by the gods. The sun moves -because- of Aumanator. Magic -works- because of Auril. Hate and strife are -fed- by Bane. The gods are actually there for a purpose set down by Lord Ao. If there's no punishment for disbelief, and people can actually learn that, then why believe? Everything will work as it should right?

Except it won't. The portfolios of the gods MUST exist. The gods require worship to power their abilities, and their abilities are required to keep their portfolios in line. Individual gods can die, be born, take over other portfolios, or have mortals ascend to their status. But the portfolios must be maintained. And if something constitutes a long-term threat to the gods' portfolios, that actually means a long term threat to the stability of the universe itself.

Look at what happens when one portfolio goes kaput? Spellplague. The Weave unravels. Universes collide.

There are people who'd be defiant, and would say 'Gods don't exist!' But once it can be proven they do exist, and that atheism is 'rewarded' with eternal damnation... well... there's actually not a lot of people left who would qualify for the wall. That leaves madmen... who Cyric can take anyways... and those who pretty much deserve it for being stupider than those who go to church because 'it's what momma says we do.'


Eventually Kelemvor relented because he realized there's a natural order to the universe in the Realms, and that every thing in the outer planes has a reason and a place, and his place involved properly administering the dead. It meant not denying the evil gods their petitioners just because he did not like them. It meant not saving nonbelievers from the wall, because it was causing problems in the world, even that short time. Mystra was forced by Lord Ao to grant Cyric's clerics access to the Weave, Kelemvor was forced to stick the lost onto the wall. It was necessary to keep the world working.

Being a god on Toril isn't about being sympathetic to the causes of your followers, it's about embodying the essence of your portfolios, keeping that crap running as it should, and the followers being sympathetic to YOU.

--------------------------------

Now on Eberron, belief, faith, and worship aren't even necessary to gain power from your diety, nor is a diety even necessary. You could be a heretic of your church, or even worse, you could 'worship' the lawful good Silver Flame, but actually be a chaotic evil servant of the demon she locked away serving as a member of the clergy. And if you were a divine powered character, you'd get your divine power just as if you were the most noble of paladins. Atheism IS a valid choice in Eberron, as the gods are distant and simply do not involve themselves that closely. Divine power comes from something else.
 
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It's not about atheism or agnosticism. For me, it's how it's portrayed. The CRPG Neverwinter Nights 2, and other Forgotten Realms literature, make it fairly clear that the Wall of Souls is a form of suffering and torment.

Certainly, it's impossible (or difficult) to deny the existence of gods in typical D&D campaign settings... but the existence of the Wall in the Realms cosmology means that (in that setting) even the Lawful Good gods are complicit in a scheme by where all sentient beings must choose to serve one of them... or be damned. It's a... hmmm... it's a protection racket?

Note that in no way should this conversation touch on real world religion or beliefs. My distaste for the concept of the Wall of Souls in the Forgotten Realms is purely because of the implications it has for the Good deities in that setting. A mechanism of torment and eternal unrest, which forces sentient creatures to pick even a vile deity like Malar over no belief at all, doesn't seem like something that honorable and caring gods like Helm or Mielikki or Sune should be supporting.

[...again: this is not about real world beliefs or lack thereof - discussion of such is against EN World policy...]
 

The thing to remember there is that the Lawful Good dieties do not run the show, nor the Good ones. Nor the unaligned ones.

Lawful Good dieties might see it as a just reward for not following a system necessary to make the universe work. By selfishly choosing disbelief over the good of the entire cosmos, punishment might become necessary.

And any diety of good, faced with the knowledge that without worship, the entire universe could, in point of fact, die, would see such punishments as necessary for the greater good of the universe.

The vile dieties are as necessary as the good ones, a lesson Mystra v.3.0 had to learn the hard way. The world needs its cruelties as much as its benevolences. And there's a false dichotomy there. If I'm a lawful good god, and I'm presented with this idea of a mortal's choice of 'worship Malar or end up damned' to me, those are not options I consider when I have the option 'convert.' It's not a real problem, good gods solve it by looking for converts.

Let's face it, good gods don't really have a bad PR gig. Who wants to worship a god of lies, or of madness, or of strife, or of pain, when you've got that buxon scantily clad woman in a sexy red dress over there saying her goddess of pretty women and kisses on the cheek will welcome you in, and oh, hey, that scar looks totally manly on you Mr Adventurer!

Thing is, in the Forgotten Realms, the gods are as central to its tone as the utter lack of gods is to Dark Sun. Within the campaign setting, the gods are not just real... they are meddlesome. They like to get involved. It's how things are. Many a FR adventure starts with a god coming down and saying 'I QUEST THEE TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT OTHER GOD THERE.' It's inherent to the history, and it's inherent to the cosmology.
 

A mechanism of torment and eternal unrest, which forces sentient creatures to pick even a vile deity like Malar over no belief at all, doesn't seem like something that honorable and caring gods like Helm or Mielikki or Sune should be supporting.

From my understanding of FR cosmology, it goes like this.

The sun must rise and set each day.

The thing that makes that happen is a god.

The god makes it happen with their godly power.

They get godly power from worship.

If you don't worship the god of the sun, you are, in some small way, responsible for the chance that the sun might stop moving.

Implicitly, folks in FR know this. To worship the god of something is to ensure that the thing keeps on keepin' on. Don't worship the earth goddess, the earth dies. Don't worship the death god, undead roam the earth. Don't worship the god of murder, nothing gets murdered.

That's why denying the gods worship is punishable by torment. No worship, no world. Atheism is evil.

Of course, the Athar, the iconic D&D gnostics, would look at the situation a little differently. They likely see Ao as setting up a system that demands worship as the height of divine wickedness, a powerful entity enslaving an entire population or condemning it to destruction. Plenty of worlds get by without needing worship just fine, so Ao must have set it up that way on purpose, when it could've been different. So, the best way to work against the gods of Faerun, is to get people frickin' off that rock. Depopulte it. Let them know that they can move to Krynn, or Oerth, or even just the Outlands (in fact, the closer to the Spire they are, the less likely any god will ever tell them what to do ever again). Set up stable portals. Toril is already something of a swiss-cheese world, riddled with planes to other realities, it should be easy enough. The gods, trapped in a cage and without being fed worship, die. The world dies. Ao, presumably, dies. And Athar members the mutliverse over rejoice at having struck a decisive victory against the corrupt forces of the divine.

Oh, and as to the OP. Yeah, that's a crappy fate for core souls. Guess some heroes are going to have to go and change that, right? ;)
 

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