Planes Above, sucks to be good.

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I would posit that it's easier to be an atheist in a typical D&D campaign than an agnostic, based on the fact that one could easily say, "These guys aren't really gods, they're just superpowered astral creatures!"

If the typical D&D campaign was set in Mystara/Known World, that's exactly what they are!

 

[lukelightning]

Yes, it is hard to be agnostic in most campaign settings. Sometimes I think people take a little too much real world baggage into games.

Yeah, but what's the point of worshipping some powerful being? The D&D world is full of all sorts of super power magic, so gods are nothing special.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, but what's the point of worshipping some powerful being? The D&D world is full of all sorts of super power magic, so gods are nothing special.

Depends on the context of the game world.

In Dark Sun, Gods are nonexistant, but worship of the sorcerer-kings is more than simply 'they're powerful.' It's a survival skill.

In Forgotten Realms, the gods provide a lot more than simply 'Hey look, I'm a powerful being.' Divine and primal power does not work except through the gods' auspice. There's a complete benefits package to worship, and not to mention, not every superpowered being out there can, in their death, cause the whole universe to collapse.

No, the dieties are not at the top of the food chain, but if you want conflict, you need things that can conflict. Demons, primordials, other dieties, you need these entities so your gods can have something to fight. Look at Norse mythology; did the presence of Jotun in their mythology make it so that the Aesir were any less worshipped? Actually, the opposite tack is taken--there's powerful entities out there so you might as well pick the side willing to help you out.

 

[Epametheus]

I found Planes Above to be a rather nifty book, with the various ideas and plot hooks and threw out there.

I find the Outsider issue interesting, for it helps establish the Astral Sea as a living place with a steadily growing population. Also note that Lolth, Torag, and the Raven Queen, who don't have Astral realms, don't suffer from the Outsider issue.

Planes Above does a provide an actual, lasting solution to the problem of the Outsiders; it's just that the solution, which is cast down Asmodeus and re-shape Hell (the only divine realm any and all Outsiders can enter) into a sanctuary for the Outsiders, is so monumental a task as to be barely conceivable for even the greatest of heroes to attempt it.

Which means the challenge is out there, for those who wish to prove that they can go beyond the impossible.

And I like that.

 

[the Jester]

It's a complete failure on the particular deity to fulfill the promises to their followers that when they die, they will go to the right place.

Wait, where do you get that the gods promise this?

This may be an example of some of that real-world baggage mentioned upthread.

 

[Votan]

Planes Above does a provide an actual, lasting solution to the problem of the Outsiders; it's just that the solution, which is cast down Asmodeus and re-shape Hell (the only divine realm any and all Outsiders can enter) into a sanctuary for the Outsiders, is so monumental a task as to be barely conceivable for even the greatest of heroes to attempt it.

I had never actually considered this solution to the issue of the astral plane. I wonder how hard it would be to actually make Hell into an actually decent place for the afterlife.

If I ever did an epic 4E campaign I might just steal this idea. I really do like the cosmology of 4E -- it has the "broken world" feel of universes like Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion or the Malazan Book of the Fallen. This sort of dark fantasy is really resonant with the roots of the RPG movement.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, it is not bad. If the universe were all square and fine there'd be nothing for heroes to do. If perfect justice was meted out in the afterlife there'd be no reason to bother dealing with evil in the world at all either. If there ARE going to be deities and afterlives and whatnot then it is pretty much mandatory that the universe has to be broken in some fashion.

 

[Gort]

Just got a copy of Planes Above. Man is it depressing. Apparently in 4e cosmology now even if you are good, you are stuck in the astral and not guaranteed to get to the domain of your deity, even if you are devout. And there is nothing your deity can do about it. How sad is that. You are simply an outsider. Eeking whatever existence you can out of the astral barrens, usually within eyeshot of where you were supposed to go to. No wonder Asmodeus is kicking butt.

I'll take, "The afterlife is an uncertain place for everyone" over, "Good guys get something nice, guaranteed, bad guys get shafted, guaranteed".

It used to be a complete no-brainer, morally. Even if you were evil at heart, anyone with any intelligence would do their best to be good just from self-interest.

Truly holy or good people shouldn't just be doing it because they know they'll have limitless rewards. A truly holy person who does good things with no expectation of reward whatsoever. Otherwise you're just doing the sensible thing.

To me, if you want an alignment that's good or evil, you have to do good or evil things even when it goes against your interest to do so. You're just as average as the rest of us otherwise.