Planes Above, sucks to be good.

[DracoSuave]

Just to point out: I'd think the Athar'd want to keep mortals -away- from Krynn rather than towards it.

It's not just as much a god's plaything as Toril, it's specificly being monkeyed with by Bahamut and Tiam... I mean Paladine and Takhesis.... and not only are the consequences of nonworship dire for the world... if too MANY people go to the side of good, they have a tendancy to drop mountains on the place to restore the balance.

And the god behind the rest? Chaos itself. At least Lord Ao actually is interested in Toril's continued function. Chaos actively wants to blow it all up.

Oh, and you'd think they'd be all about that 'Age of Mortals' thing right? Nope. That was just Takhesis spiriting it away while cosmological horrors in the forms of dragons play around with it some, until the rest of the gods actually -find- where she'd hidden it.


In retrospect, they might like it now... Paladine is mortal, Takhesis is dead, and that's made things a little more neutral.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Just to point out: I'd think the Athar'd want to keep mortals -away- from Krynn rather than towards it.

Hahaha, probably true.

And the god behind the rest? Chaos itself. At least Lord Ao actually is interested in Toril's continued function. Chaos actively wants to blow it all up.

Imagine what the more evil-leaning Athar members have in store.

"Look, the choice was between an eternity of mental slavery debasing yourself before arrogant deities, OR planetary mass genocide. Really, it's something of a toss-up. And anyway, who's gonna miss one little mortal world out of all of reality? Bunch of backwater berks, if ya ask me. Better off without 'em. They're probably better off, too, now that they ain't stuck in a wall forever. Er. One assumes."

Ah, shades of grey in D&D.

Edit:
Of course, the nature of FR cosmology was hilarious to tweak with in my Cthulu Comes To Town campaign.
"Hey, everybody, good news! I know the gods are all dead and gibbuous horrors roam the Dales, but the moon is out! Someone's still making the moon rise! There's still hope!"
"Moon? Oh, no, that's not the moon. That's Azathoth, the last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity."
"Um...is....is it a god? Do...do I worship it?"
"I suppose you could, but it's probably not listening. It probably doesn't care about you. In fact, it probably doesn't care about any of us, or Faerun, or Aebir-Toril, or the moon, or even Lord Ao, may he rest in peace. It has appeared from nowhere on a cosmic journey to nothingness, and all of our greatest accomplishments are like a flea upon a louse upon a rat to it."
"Oh. Huh....<long, still silence> It's kind of pretty the way it lights up the night with that sickly green glow, I guess."
"Mm. Sure. If you say so."
"And I like the little flute noises it makes."
"Eh? The flute noises? What are you....<ears perk up>OH SWEET HELL FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS STILL LIVING SHUT YOUR EARS, SHUT YOUR EARS YOU FOOLS, SHUT THEM NOW!"

 

[ppaladin123]

The thing to remember there is that the Lawful Good dieties do not run the show, nor the Good ones. Nor the unaligned ones.

Lawful Good dieties might see it as a just reward for not following a system necessary to make the universe work. By selfishly choosing disbelief over the good of the entire cosmos, punishment might become necessary.

And any diety of good, faced with the knowledge that without worship, the entire universe could, in point of fact, die, would see such punishments as necessary for the greater good of the universe.

The vile dieties are as necessary as the good ones, a lesson Mystra v.3.0 had to learn the hard way. The world needs its cruelties as much as its benevolences. And there's a false dichotomy there. If I'm a lawful good god, and I'm presented with this idea of a mortal's choice of 'worship Malar or end up damned' to me, those are not options I consider when I have the option 'convert.' It's not a real problem, good gods solve it by looking for converts.

Let's face it, good gods don't really have a bad PR gig. Who wants to worship a god of lies, or of madness, or of strife, or of pain, when you've got that buxon scantily clad woman in a sexy red dress over there saying her goddess of pretty women and kisses on the cheek will welcome you in, and oh, hey, that scar looks totally manly on you Mr Adventurer!

Thing is, in the Forgotten Realms, the gods are as central to its tone as the utter lack of gods is to Dark Sun. Within the campaign setting, the gods are not just real... they are meddlesome. They like to get involved. It's how things are. Many a FR adventure starts with a god coming down and saying 'I QUEST THEE TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT OTHER GOD THERE.' It's inherent to the history, and it's inherent to the cosmology.

Yup, this cosmology with its petty jealous gods that demand fealty and essentially enslave mortals (whether or not their master is a benevolent despot or a cruel one) is one that I simply can't stand and will not use at the game table.

It all follows logically from the premises of the setting, sure. I just find the premises rather vile. I mean, Murder must exist as a pillar of the universe? Why exactly? Do these portfolios even cover all logical actions/elements? Am I supposed to be happy/grateful that Ao created a universe that can never be at peace because if the god of murder isn't worshiped the universe explodes?

Now if the creators of the Forgotten Realms (I mean the authors of the setting, not Ao) wanted to make a hook out of it, to make it a perceived injustice that some adventurers might fight against and have some hope of rectifying it, perhaps at some cost (free the damned souls and overthrow Ao or find another basis for the stability of the universe), I suppose I could tolerate it. After all, the Dragon of Athas holds back something worse but the setting still appears to encourage adventurers to think of ways to make things better. There may be trade offs, and painful costs to bear. People might disagree over what outcome is preferable. But it is not impossible to change. But no, this aspect of FR is just presented as an immutable part of the setting. Worse, any time any one objects to it, the setting stomps them down (sorry...Chaos otherwise...deal with it).

I am guessing it doesn't irk some people as much as me. You know that episode of Star Trek where they meet the actual Apollo and find out that he is a totally cool dude who will lavish you with gifts and pleasure as long as you worship him but has a conniption fit the minute anyone ignores him or tries to do their own thing? I actually cheered at the TV when Kirk ignored him. And I cheered when they destroyed his power source. Sure, it meant that the crew would not longer be able to live in lavish paradise. But there is no joy for me in being a pet.

The only campaign I'd run in Forgotten realms: The adventurers stand toe-to-toe with Torm and Amaunator and Illmater (who, to be fair, actually does appear to hate the set up) as they dismantle their system. "No! Without us there will be chaos!" Maybe, maybe not. Magic appears to continue to exist without Mystara or any replacement. Perhaps the world will survive even if it is an angrier, less hospitable place. Humanity deserves the right to carve its own destiny for a change. And it is better to die on our feet than live on our knees regardless.

 

[ppaladin123]

Just got a copy of Planes Above. Man is it depressing. Apparently in 4e cosmology now even if you are good, you are stuck in the astral and not guaranteed to get to the domain of your deity, even if you are devout. And there is nothing your deity can do about it. How sad is that. You are simply an outsider. Eeking whatever existence you can out of the astral barrens, usually within eyeshot of where you were supposed to go to. No wonder Asmodeus is kicking butt.

Even worse: the lattice of heaven shattered so even souls that make it to their gods' domains can only stay for a few hundred years or so. Eventually from dying too many times or from simple age, their divine afterlife bodies break up and their souls get kicked out into the great unknown anyway.

It's a odd, troubling set-up but I think it is rife for adventures to rectify it. It is why Pelor and other good gods tolerate the evils that Erathis must explore to finish her "Great Game." It is something that even the evil gods want to see fixed. That leaves plenty of room for interesting encounters and odd alliances. The book encourages the DM and anyone reading it to consider whether things could be different and at what cost. I like that.

 

[pemerton]

Oh, and as to the OP. Yeah, that's a crappy fate for core souls. Guess some heroes are going to have to go and change that, right?

This is what I like about The Plane Above - it's full of ideas about getting the PCs involved in the mythic history of the world in a way that speaks to real human values.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just got a copy of Planes Above. Man is it depressing. Apparently in 4e cosmology now even if you are good, you are stuck in the astral and not guaranteed to get to the domain of your deity, even if you are devout. And there is nothing your deity can do about it. How sad is that. You are simply an outsider. Eeking whatever existence you can out of the astral barrens, usually within eyeshot of where you were supposed to go to. No wonder Asmodeus is kicking butt.

At least in part it's to stop buffy resurrection syndrome. If you die heroically and go to an awesome afterlife, and all life on the prime material is comparatively fleeting anyway, why would you ever get raised again? Why would you raise someone whom you knew to be a hero?

This way your afterlife is uncertain, and there's some reason to raise your buddy or let yourself be raised by them.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yup, this cosmology with its petty jealous gods that demand fealty and essentially enslave mortals (whether or not their master is a benevolent despot or a cruel one) is one that I simply can't stand and will not use at the game table.

Fair enough, but it's no different than earth mythologies. Pantheons have historically been of the 'jealous' and 'flawed' types. It's generally only monotheistic cultures that have gods embody perfection and omniscience.

It all follows logically from the premises of the setting, sure. I just find the premises rather vile. I mean, Murder must exist as a pillar of the universe? Why exactly?

Lions and tigers have to eat. To eat, they must kill.

Is it vile? Yes. But then again, since when was the Forgotten Realms a NICE place? The entire thing is a crapsack world, with everything falling apart... and then the gods go and screw stuff up just to make things worse!

If you're lucky, you live in a nice city, where the worst problems are corruption, graft, murder, and a mad wizard who lives in miles of catacombs beneath your city who will do as he pleases randomly.

Do these portfolios even cover all logical actions/elements? Am I supposed to be happy/grateful that Ao created a universe that can never be at peace because if the god of murder isn't worshiped the universe explodes?

Given that as noted above, the Realms is not a nice place, has some very nasty things in it. That whole 'points of light' thing.

If you're in a world where everything is filled with ancient horrors waiting to kill you if you take the wrong step, do you turn your back on the cities that exist strictly for the purpose of ensuring that the world is NOT consumed by everything dark and horrid?

The bad stuff is necessary, but the good stuff is too. That's just how the realms work. It's not a matter to be morally judged; a morally just campaign setting would have nothing but perfect fields of happy farmers who never worry about villainous kobolds because no one made them. No goblins made, and that five tentacled beast that destroyed your home town? Never happened because there's no far realm of things that should not be. That would also be boring.

Now if the creators of the Forgotten Realms (I mean the authors of the setting, not Ao) wanted to make a hook out of it, to make it a perceived injustice that some adventurers might fight against and have some hope of rectifying it, perhaps at some cost (free the damned souls and overthrow Ao or find another basis for the stability of the universe), I suppose I could tolerate it.

Lord Ao actually was invented for the setting during 'The Time of Troubles' which was the in game event that marked the passage from 1st to 2nd edition D&D. In those days tho, D&D settings were all crapsack worlds filled with entire locations that existed only to kill you for no decent purpose.

After all, the Dragon of Athas holds back something worse but the setting still appears to encourage adventurers to think of ways to make things better. There may be trade offs, and painful costs to bear. People might disagree over what outcome is preferable. But it is not impossible to change. But no, this aspect of FR is just presented as an immutable part of the setting. Worse, any time any one objects to it, the setting stomps them down (sorry...Chaos otherwise...deal with it).

1) Killing the Dragon of Tyr was the jump the shark moment of Dark Sun.

2) That's kinda how crapsack worlds have to be. They're not supposed to be great happy places where good always wins. If good wins in the realms, it's small victories against overwhelming multinational conspiracies. You can't really have a campaign setting with meddlesome gods and have things like atheism even be rational as a choice. Go ahead, do it. But, you're insane.

I am guessing it doesn't irk some people as much as me. You know that episode of Star Trek where they meet the actual Apollo and find out that he is a totally cool dude who will lavish you with gifts and pleasure as long as you worship him but has a conniption fit the minute anyone ignores him or tries to do their own thing? I actually cheered at the TV when Kirk ignored him. And I cheered when they destroyed his power source. Sure, it meant that the crew would not longer be able to live in lavish paradise. But there is no joy for me in being a pet.

Nothing wrong in embracing Chaos.

The only campaign I'd run in Forgotten realms: The adventurers stand toe-to-toe with Torm and Amaunator and Illmater (who, to be fair, actually does appear to hate the set up) as they dismantle their system. "No! Without us there will be chaos!" Maybe, maybe not. Magic appears to continue to exist without Mystara or any replacement. Perhaps the world will survive even if it is an angrier, less hospitable place. Humanity deserves the right to carve its own destiny for a change. And it is better to die on our feet than live on our knees regardless.

I wouldn't see any of those gods doing it. In older terms, risking the entire universe to gain freedom for everyone isn't a Lawful Good thing, nor even Neutral Good. You're all the way into Chaotic Neutral territory. Would you find yourself with the gods of Good, towards the Lawful end on your side? Hell. No.

Let's be blunt. You want to destroy the pantheon. The only god that would go along with that is Cyric. He's tried before.

And that bastard's the sort of guy you're trying to save people FROM.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Interesting how this thread became one of whether or not divine punishment in the afterlife was fair or not. My only concern was with the 4e astral plane being home for the gods and their domains, and apparently due to the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven by the primordials, even the souls of devout followers of gods would fail to get to that gods domain. They become outsiders, stuck on an astral island within throwing distance of their eternal reward apparently at random, but never able to get there. And even their god is unable to invite them in.

This isn't even punishment as outlined in previous posts. It's a complete failure on the particular deity to fulfill the promises to their followers that when they die, they will go to the right place. It's not because they didn't choose to worship, they did worship and now are still being punished. Sure, they're not cast to Baator, but after being stuck on an astral island and forced to scratch a living perhaps throwing your lot in with asmodeus and at least having a purpose again starts to look good. How depressing.

 

[DracoSuave]

How depressing.

Could be a lot worse. Petitioners have always tended to get the short end of the stick in the D&D universes. Often you'd end up just getting absorbed into the plane itself, or conscripted to be one of the fodder troops in some eternal war, with your reward? Oblivion.

-------------

I prefer, myself, the cosmology of Eberron for all this. What happens when you die? Who knows. There's no guarantee, even the gods themselves are mysteries or myths, and many cultures don't even worship dieties but rather concepts or embodyments of some higher ideal. Who really cares about what happens when you die, when you're supposed to be more concerned with not dying. You go to the realm of the dead... and from there... well... no one knows. No one worries about the cosmic injustice of gods running the place, because they don't interfere with how things work.

But... in a world where the gods are not only interfering, but sometimes even directly hand down quests from on high... no... atheism is not a rational choice, want of freedom or not. Want freedom? Flip a coin and evoke Tymora and forget about it. It's not being a slave, it's paying heed to the physics of the universe.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Interesting how this thread became one of whether or not divine punishment in the afterlife was fair or not. My only concern was with the 4e astral plane being home for the gods and their domains, and apparently due to the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven by the primordials, even the souls of devout followers of gods would fail to get to that gods domain. They become outsiders, stuck on an astral island within throwing distance of their eternal reward apparently at random, but never able to get there. And even their god is unable to invite them in.

This isn't even punishment as outlined in previous posts. It's a complete failure on the particular deity to fulfill the promises to their followers that when they die, they will go to the right place. It's not because they didn't choose to worship, they did worship and now are still being punished. Sure, they're not cast to Baator, but after being stuck on an astral island and forced to scratch a living perhaps throwing your lot in with asmodeus and at least having a purpose again starts to look good. How depressing.

Eh, make up something different then. I mean there's no lore that is any better than your own lore. Maybe in your world mortals get to choose their own destiny. Truthfully though isn't freedom something of an illusion, even in the real world? The PoL cosmology is sort of a half wrecked universe, but it does HALF WORK. Some souls join the gods in their astral domains. Just not all of them. Maybe the PCs can make things different, and better. Maybe not. The players will decide that one way or another.