[Planescape] What would you want to see in a Mega-Adventure / Campaign?

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]
I would love to get your thoughts on the "Planescape feel" poll question when you get a second.

[MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]
I agree, a valued poll would be nice. For now, while it might not be as satisfactory to do a multiple choice poll on the individual level, I'm going to trust that in aggregate trends will emerge. And I will do my best to keep track of any specific feedback offered like what [MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION] does above.

[MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION]
Great feedback thanks!

There were a couple things (besides my own love of the setting) prompting me to write a Planescape mega-adventure, and one of them was indeed how any DMs who report their Planescape sessions not feeling as unique as they'd hoped...often they cite their players, but other times the quality of adventures or their own poor grasp of the uniqueness of the Planescape setting. My thinking is that an adventure should just be loaded with that stuff (the unique feel) making it all around the PCs and almost effortless for the DM.

I also appreciated your distinction of the different ways portals can be used. As rewards. As a pacing mechanism. As a sandbox boundary (the 'box' part of sandbox). As a way to cut out the "boring" travel scenes and jump right to the action.... I may need to include a couple different options in the poll dealing with portals.

When it comes to the actual adventure design, I'm fairly certain that I will use portals in a whole variety of ways. For example, here are three ways I'm using portals distinctly:

• In the opening adventure, the known portal back to Sigil is destroyed in a disaster, making one of the motives for exploring to find another portal to Sigil (and there's a reason the PCs want to get to Sigil).
• in the 2nd chapter (for levels 5-10), portals go haywire shifting unpredictably, making portal travel a risky proposition; one of the big objectives of this chapter is stabilizing the portals, and because of the unreliability of portals the PCs are presented with other forms of planar travel that can take a bit more time.
• A connecting thread across the campaign is a chamber of ancient portals arranged in a ring that is deep in Sigil dating back to the time of Aoskar. It leads to the heart of the Rift. PCs learn of the ancient portals in chapter 1, search for the portals in chapter 2, find the gate key to in chapter 3, and finally step thru in chapter 4.

 

[MoutonRustique]

...
When it comes to the actual adventure design, I'm fairly certain that I will use portals in a whole variety of ways. For example, here are three ways I'm using portals distinctly:

• In the opening adventure, the known portal back to Sigil is destroyed in a disaster, making one of the motives for exploring to find another portal to Sigil (and there's a reason the PCs want to get to Sigil).
• in the 2nd chapter (for levels 5-10), portals go haywire shifting unpredictably, making portal travel a risky proposition; one of the big objectives of this chapter is stabilizing the portals, and because of the unreliability of portals the PCs are presented with other forms of planar travel that can take a bit more time.
• A connecting thread across the campaign is a chamber of ancient portals arranged in a ring that is deep in Sigil dating back to the time of Aoskar. It leads to the heart of the Rift. PCs learn of the ancient portals in chapter 1, search for the portals in chapter 2, find the gate key to in chapter 3, and finally step thru in chapter 4.

That does sound very cool!

A thing that popped in my head while reading : the construction and destruction of portals is one of the grayer areas of PS - there are many ways of "affecting" portals, but outright destroying one is always a bit of a mystery as to the how. Some adventures propose that it's as simple as destroy the arch supporting it, but then other adventures make it impossible, and then others make it possible, but not used (because... ?) and etc...

This is important to me as when knowledge is given to players, they tend to use it. (I know right! The nerve!)

As such, I prefer that great care be taken when creating or destroying portals (especially if they're permanent). My favored method is having an event that is clearly shown to be of the really "impossible to replicate" kind. Otherwise the DM has to deal with all the questions and or "trial and error" PCs are likely to try - which can be fun; but often isn't...

ex: collapse a mountain on it - even then, the portal as an in game reality may not even be really destroyed, but it is effectively destroyed. Have a Per destroy the portal it is guarding (sacrificing his life in the attempt.) Or something along those lines - things PCs could attempt, but not easily on the portals in their Sigillian neighborhood...

Seeing as this adventure seems to focus (at least in part) around the portals themselves, you've probably got it covered. I'm just a worry wort.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION]
Short version: A rift in the planes drops chunks of crystal meteors and Astral debris on the inn with the portal (along with half the town of Ironridge).

I'm sharing my design process over here: http://www.planewalker.com/content/5th-edition-planescape-campaign

I like the intimate Planescape focus of those forums and have been trying to get folks to migrate back to the Planewalker.com site after recovering from their database crash.

 

[MoutonRustique]

Short version: A rift in the planes drops chunks of crystal meteors and Astral debris on the inn with the portal (along with half the town of Ironridge).

Yeah... that's pretty hard to replicate in your backyard.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem I find with factions is that unless they're really interested, players will never remember all factions or particularly care about them. Often, players will only remember their own factions, and I had one Paladin in my Planescape campaign who forget which faction he was in (the Harmonium), got confused, thought he was a Mercykiller, and went to their headquarters instead. That was unpleasant for everyone involved.

Hehehe, hilarious.

I think this is a reasonable issue, but one that is something that is possible to address in design. like, your Paladin never forgot that they were a Paladin, right? Because "Paladin" defines so much about them that they use in play, from their aesthetics (the weapons and armor they use) to their class powers (which get use in every adventure!) to even their alignment or their associated NPCs and character goals.

In PS, a character's belief should be that important, IMO. More so than race or class, your BELIEF should define your equipment, your powers, your associates, and your goals. THAT should be the formative seed of any character you create.

Hell, when I tried my most recent PS game, I floated the idea of people picking a faction INSTEAD of a class. Which isn't to say I took away paladins, but more that I wanted someone who wanted to play a "paladin" to first decide what belief they wanted to espouse, and then organically find their way to being whatever kind of paladin happened to shake out of that. Lay on Hands, IIRC, you could find as a member of the Athar, the Believers, the Harmonium, and the Sensates. But if you were a Mercykiller, you wouldn't find yourself with that ability.

This isn't to say that the factions are a bad idea; rather, they are one of Planescape's unique facets, but DM's must gauge their players and be aware of what kind of style they prefer. In some cases, I find that some groups just aren't suited for Planescape (like mine).

I think it's maybe worth it to point out that PC's in most PnP games have trouble joining ANY organization, especially one that isn't part of character creation. The nature of freelance murderhobos is that they don't want to be tied down to any particular group of jerks, and the nature of PS means that there is no group that is "right" because that's kind of the conflict in the setting. And the nature of most players is that Proper Nouns go poof in your memory. Faction membership needs to overcome these tendencies if it is to be something present to a high degree in any individual game. Factions are an iconic, PS-y thing, but it's not surprising to me that so many people have difficulty integrating them into the games that they personally run, because they're a bit awkward unless you make them really FORMATIVE to your character.

But, IMO, if you don't, you may as well be running a plane-hopping FR adventure in certain respects. Which can be a lot of fun, but doesn't highlight what makes PS unique as much.

Now on to Quickleaf!
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Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff

Vague, but yeah. I think to a certain degree, every fantasy setting does this (dragons are the abstract concept of greed made manifest; skeletons are the abstract concept of death made manifest, etc.), but PS is explicit and proud about this in a way that not every setting is. And it does it to more stuff. So while not definitively unique, it's a big element that's played up a bunch.

As a poll option, it's a little vague.

Adventures spanning multiple contrasting planes

Yeah, this would be the "planewalker" part. While I think you probably COULD do a PS adventure on just one plane, part of the distinct flavor of the setting is in being in the Abyss on Monday and The Plane of Vacuum on Tuesday with a stop in Arcadia for lunch -- it's part of the Wow factor, part of the "taken to the extreme!" idea of the setting. Portals go a long way to facilitate this.

Aesthetics (graphic design, art, writing style, dark humor)
Cant (planar slang)

I would consider Cant as part of the aesthetics, personally, but in a lot of ways I would think this is one of the MOST important bits. If you can nail this, it'll be identified as a PS adventure regardless of anything else.

Compelling questions/revelations, eg. "what can change the nature of a man?"

I think this is important for teasing out the Belief angle -- how the PC's want to answer this question should be what matters, and their answers should be part of what paths they take down the road in the adventure. It also helps keep the adventure itself thematic, so it's a nice writing tool.

15 factions managing Sigil's civil government (pre-Faction War timeline)

Less key in and of itself than what it ennables -- characters defined by their affiliation in philosophical clubs.

Interaction emphasized as equal to or more important than combat

Talking the BBEG to death is a pretty memorable PS-y experience, and helps to keep it distinct from most other settings

Killing fiends and stealing their stuff

Meh. Possible, but not unique or special.

Overland travel thru strange paths like the Infinite Staircase or River Styx

Like other planar sites, those should be important as destinations, not as filler. If I'm going to the Styx, I need to be having an adventure about memory, forgetting, and the nature of washing away sins, or some other resonant feature of the Styx itself. I'm not just getting on the Styx to get from Pandemonium to Carceri.

Philosophers with clubs playing critical roles in the adventures

Regardless of faction membership, significant PS NPC's should largely be "philosophers with clubs" to a certain degree, as in, they are motivated by their beliefs, and they have the power and authority to change the planes with them.

Player decisions shaping the planes in a significant way (the power of belief)

It's what separates a Good PS Adventure from a Good Adventure, I think.

Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B

Important only as a way of "cutting to the action," where "the action" might be occurring on multiple different planes. "The Action" shouldn't be happening without the PC's.

Sigil, City of Doors, as a key adventuring site

Like a few other notes here, important only as much as it ennables getting at the important bits in the settings -- namely, Sigil is a meeting ground for extremes, and place to find a path to wherever you want to go. Useful, iconic, but it's possible to fill that void in other ways, probably.

Strong adventure hooks, eg. WHY we're planting a rose in the Abyss

If they're planting a rose in the abyss, it should be because they believe it will DO something, something that will support their own worldviews.

Subversive fantasy playing on expected villains and outcomes

I think that part of the idea of a setting built on belief is that villains and heroes are not always immediately transparent or clear, or even are up to individual interpretation. Who do you BELIEVE needs to be stopped? Who would pose a risk to the way you want the world to be?

Wondrous adventure sites

Not unique to PS, but an appealing trait of it that it marinates in, a lot like "abstract made manifest."
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[Quickleaf]

I think it's maybe worth it to point out that PC's in most PnP games have trouble joining ANY organization, especially one that isn't part of character creation. The nature of freelance murderhobos is that they don't want to be tied down to any particular group of jerks, and the nature of PS means that there is no group that is "right" because that's kind of the conflict in the setting.

I have two thoughts.

First, if certain players have trouble playing their alignments are they really going to do better playing a faction? Some players do good with having their character defined to a T from the get-go. These players generally do well picking a faction in advance. Some players do good with their characters only a bit defined and then figuring out the character (personality traits, ideals, bonds, flaws) thru play. These players generally don't do well picking a faction (or an alignment!) in advance. It's a play style thing. I'd like to accomodate both styles.

Second, the part I emphasized. I feel that a faction is probably being depicted in a cynical/antagonistic way by the DM if players consistently feel tied down to it or that the faction NPCs are jerks. In my own DMing I've noticed players stand up and take notice when allied NPCs are genuinely capable, helpful, and have their own agendas. I'd like to think that sympathetically presented factions could make joining a faction a real perk and maybe even a dilemma as in "X and Y factions really helped us out in the past, but which do I believe in?" Perhaps I'm being idealistic about the capacities of an adventure, however.

And thank you for your well thought out critique of my poll options

Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff Vague, but yeah. I think to a certain degree, every fantasy setting does this (dragons are the abstract concept of greed made manifest; skeletons are the abstract concept of death made manifest, etc.), but PS is explicit and proud about this in a way that not every setting is. And it does it to more stuff. So while not definitively unique, it's a big element that's played up a bunch. 

As a poll option, it's a little vague.

Hmm. How about: Abstract made manifest - e.g. meet your own mortality or conscience? Does the example help tighten it up?

I would consider Cant as part of the aesthetics, personally, but in a lot of ways I would think this is one of the MOST important bits. If you can nail this, it'll be identified as a PS adventure regardless of anything else.

Yeah, I agree the aesthetics are crucial. And the reason I separated Cant is because there's actually a whole lot of people who really do not like it, even among Planescape fans.

Killing fiends and stealing their stuff. Meh. Possible, but not unique or special.

I included this option because it helps me figure out Planescape player types. For example, if there is a group of people who select (*)Wondrous adventure sites, (*)Killing fiends and stealing their stuff, (*)Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B...then I've got a pretty good impression about a subset of Planescape players who see the "Planescape feel" as synonymous with "D&D adventures where adventurers kill monsters and take their stuff...on the planes!"

Obviously, my leaning is to the uniqueness of Planescape, but the purpose of the proposed second poll is to help clarify this stuff.

Wondrous adventure sites Not unique to PS, but an appealing trait of it that it marinates in, a lot like "abstract made manifest."

What I'm trying to capture is "the sense of wonder and majesty of the planes" (as described in the Sigil in Beyond booklet). Maybe I can use that instead as a poll option?