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Play-Testing Hold Person

ren1999

First Post
O.k. So the first thing that I noticed is the range.
The description talks about 100ft. but is that even necessary?

ranged line of sight is all that is needed.

The conditions based on the hit points of the target get pretty tedious. I think we should dump that idea.

I don't see Hold Person as a paralysis spell rather as a freezing the enemy in place spell. The enemy does not drop everything but holds everything very tightly unable to move.

I also don't think that just granting the attacker advantage over the held target is enough.

When the held target is melee attacked it should be an automatic hit with regular damage. (This is because characters hate receiving maximum damage when they are held as it usually kills them at lower levels, so I said, sure, but monsters do not take max damage either) The held target should then get an opportunity to break the enchantment after every hit because of the motivation of pain. Otherwise, if not attacked, the target can roll a save at the beginning of its turn.

And it would be nice if all enchantment spells are based on charisma rather than intelligence in order to entice casters to spend more ability level-up points on charisma.

1d20+charisma modifier versus the target's 10+wisdom modifier
target saves at 1d20+wisdom modifier versus caster's DC10+charisma modifier

Question, can a caster hold more than one person? Should a person also constitute any beast as well? I think so. No need for Hold Monster, Hold Person, Hold Animal, Hold My..

All in all, not a bad start for the spells. Real potential here.

The Dark Adept's Command spell was also play-tested and has some interesting effects. Here is a summary of my enchantment ideas for 5th edition based on what I learned from the play-testing. They are just suggestions to give us all ideas on how enchantments should be handled in the game. I am trying to order enchantments by how lethal they are in combat. I think that burst area is very powerful so just limited that to Turn Undead(which I thought would be better as Turn Alignment)

Your ideas will be different and I would like to hear them if you have time.

Turn Alignment
enchantment/encounter/class lvl 2/ranged line of sight burst 2/cha vs wis/You cause foes of opposing alignments to have the frightened condition and try to get out of your line of sight.

Little Dance
enchantment/at-will/class lvl 2/ranged line of sight/cha vs wis/You force your enemy to laugh and or dance wasting their next turn.

Cause Sleep
enchantment/encounter/class lvl 3/ranged line of sight/cha vs wis/The sleeping foe wakes and ends the effect from an ally's standard action slap or 1 enemy's automatic hit and damage.

Hold Foe
enchantment/at-will/class lvl 4/ranged line of sight/cha vs wis/You bind your enemy who can not move and takes an automatic hit and normal damage. Reroll the hold after the enemy takes a hit. The enemy can roll a wis save versus your cha at the beginning of its turn.

Command Foe
enchantment/encounter/class lvl 5/ranged line of sight/cha vs wis/You force 1 foe to approach you, or drop everything, or grovel on the ground before you./The foe rolls wis vs DC10+your cha mod at the beginning of its turn to try to break the control.

Charm Foe
enchantment/encounter/class lvl 6/ranged line of sight/cha vs wis/You force 1 foe to obey any command including attacking the self or an ally./The foe rolls wis vs DC10+your cha mod after attacking each time to try to break the charm. The victim also rolls wis vs your cha at the beginning of its turn.

Summon Being
conjuration prayer/encounter/class lvl 6/ranged 6/12/You teleport a number of beings totaling your level or less who fight to the death for you. You can not control a number of beings totalling greater than your level at any one time.
 
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howandwhy99

Adventurer
Hit Point caps could go back to HD caps quite easily. With newer players it's only going to serve as if low HD rolls for Hit Points are penalties. Then no one will want to roll and instead take averages again. They also create weaker opponents to spells due to damage during a fight. Work in tandem with fighters weakening the spell defenses by whittling down HPs. (maybe that's what they want though)

The caster levels aspect that improved this spell, sort of like Fireball, is kept by allowing for higher spell slot casting, which is okay.

One key thing is the spell is now "Hold Creature" as persons are no longer separated out as far as I can tell. Unintelligent creatures were outside the domain of the cleric (with animals falling under Druids), so this spell wasn't as powerful as it is now. Brute creatures like Owlbears will be easier to face with this in one's arsenal. But it keeps them from putting in a Hold Monster later anyways.

1 minute is long too, especially for weaker creatures. It's tantamount to an entire combat. This is close to a save or die spell. Not to bad, but it feels pretty powerful for creatures who come in small groups.
 
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ren1999

First Post
Please don't tell me you're going to make a thread for every spell now.

I might. Spell designing is my favorite subject. Now that I've grasped the flat math and expressed my displeasure with automatic hits and damage, there is very little else.

But what I could do for you and everyone is just create a thread callled Play-Testing Spells and just keep all my comments in that one thread as to not clutter the forum.
 


ren1999

First Post
1 minute is long too, especially for weaker creatures. It's tantamount to an entire combat. This is close to a save or die spell. Not to bad, but it feels pretty powerful for creatures who come in small groups.

Under the description of Charm Person it talks a lot about the social implications of charming someone. It seems a little weak to me. Shouldn't the wizard yank people around like puppets on a string?

Remember that scene in "Fire & Ice" where Nekron uses a combination of Hold Person and Charm Person to force Tegra's brother and his men to kill each other? Now that is a powerful spell. I'm wondering if D&D should allow higher level casters to do that in the game...

And here is a scene where somebody's spell resistance overpowers Nekron's enchantments.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YbSsDtl-U"]NEKRON!!!! - YouTube[/ame]
 
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howandwhy99

Adventurer
Under the description of Charm Person it talks a lot about the social implications of charming someone. It seems a little weak to me. Shouldn't the wizard yank people around like puppets on a string?

Remember that scene in "Fire & Ice" where Nekron uses a combination of Hold Person and Charm Person to force Tegra's brother and his men to kill each other? Now that is a powerful spell. I'm wondering if D&D should allow higher level casters to do that in the game...

And here is a scene where somebody's spell resistance overpower's Nekron's enchantments.
NEKRON!!!! - YouTube

Dominate Person was more powerful than Charm Person in every iteration, but the whole suit of these spells were more powerful in the earlier editions. (Effectively they were Save Ends by Condition and not simply a few rounds or save every round.)

Dominate is automaton status equivalent to controlling a bright golem. Charm simply means their attitude towards you is at Friend status. Anything you might do to alter that incurs another save. Fail the save and they will act according to how the rules say an ally will act. Setting one ally on another pretty much insures a roll, but your friendship could "win out" so to speak. It is magically enhanced after all.

Also, they should design both with an eye towards PCs casting these things on other PCs. It's sort of like a compulsion where the DM judges your actions like an NPC's. If your character was a thief and attempted to steal from that PC, you'd roll a save or find yourself compelled not to do so - this effect lasting for the entire attempt.
 

BobTheNob

First Post
I agree with that whole hp affecting spell effectiveness. Read the posts, heard the arguments ... Still think it's a real turkey of an idea. There has to be a better way than that.
 

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