Player Dilemma

[Elf Witch]

My issue with this is not who is right and who is wrong. It is about one character going behind the back of another character. I think your paladin should at least call the dwarf on the carpet about not being able to trust him.

As for the goblin kids what a cool idea the book of exalted deeds has rules on how to go about redeeming evil characters.

I prefer playing a world where most senient creatures get some kind of choice about being good and evil.

In a 3.0 game we found some kobold babies my character insited that we take them and care for them. I tried to teach them right from wrong. And it was working one of the kobold was good the other though took the taunts and meaness the other party members did to him and he was well on his way of becoming evil.

I like moral dilema's in my games.

 

[Oryan77]

Unless there is a law in your City that says it's illegal to kill GOBLIN children, I don't see what good it will do for the Paladin to bring the Dwarf in for justice. Are the city authorities really going to take this seriously? It might be morally wrong to the Paladin because they are only children, but that's the Paladins problem. I can't imagine goblins & orcs are protected under the same laws as man unless the campaign is designed to have men cities & monster cities working together in the world.

I see nothing wrong with the Dwarf killing them as long as he's not lawful good or maybe lawful neutral. I also don't see anything wrong with the Paladin getting angry with the Dwarf. But arresting him sounds pointless to me unless it's against the law to kill any and all Goblins.

This is just another case of party members not working well together. I'd either make a new PC, talk the dwarf into making a new PC, or confront the Dwarf in character and remove him from the party in-game. That doesn't necessarily mean killing him either. If the Paladin can talk the rest of the party on siding with him, everyone can come up with an idea to get rid of the Dwarf without any bloodshed. The chances of players doing that though is slim, so most likely someone is going to need to make a new character.

 

[Sundragon2012]

Why is it always assumed that Child = Helpless and innocent? Human children are perfectly capable of being quite monsterous to each other as is. Perhaps orc and goblin babies are nasty little killing machines that delight in torturing anything smaller and weaker than they are and would attempt to swarm you the moment you turned your back on them. Perhaps it's only the larger size and viciousness of the adults that keeps the children from attacking them and the parents have to sleep in shifts to make sure that the ankle-biters don't kill them in an unguarded moment. Maybe the children have to be separated to keep the older ones from killing the younger ones.

Good points.

The fact is that there is something in these creatures that makes them prone to evil. Maybe they are naturally cruel and get a viceral joy out of inflicting suffering on others. Maybe they will instinctively kill those weaker than themselves. There are many things. I think that to attribute actual humanity to races that are by their nature more vicious and cruel than the mass of humanity is a mistake and hamstrings the good aligned players and the DMs who have to avoid like the plague and realistic portrayal of the consequences of rampant violence and war.

Humans, dwarves and elves likely see the killing of such young creatures as a mercy for them at best or at worst something not to give anymore thought than swatting a fly. Too much 20th century sensitivities will divorce your game from any gritty quality at all.

According to D&D sensibilities nearly none of our ancestors were good and warriors, due to the realities of war, would be nearly uniformly evil or at best neutral and never good. Paladins.....please you'll be lucky to have someone lawful good survive a trip to the store with his alignment intact let alone deal with the rampant meaness, cruelty and horrors of war.



Chris

 

[shilsen]

Why is it always assumed that Child = Helpless and innocent? Human children are perfectly capable of being quite monsterous to each other as is. Perhaps orc and goblin babies are nasty little killing machines that delight in torturing anything smaller and weaker than they are and would attempt to swarm you the moment you turned your back on them. Perhaps it's only the larger size and viciousness of the adults that keeps the children from attacking them and the parents have to sleep in shifts to make sure that the ankle-biters don't kill them in an unguarded moment. Maybe the children have to be separated to keep the older ones from killing the younger ones.

Thanks, John - you just gave me a great idea for the next set of goblin kids you guys meet And they won't even have to be gninjae!

 

[Crothian]

That was much more concise than my response.

The lowest common denominator and me are close friends.....

 

[Rackhir]

Thanks, John - you just gave me a great idea for the next set of goblin kids you guys meet And they won't even have to be gninjae!

Why do you think I described them like I did! I remember the last set of goblin "children" we ran into.

 

[reveal]

The lowest common denominator and me are close friends.....

It's "[t]he lowest common denominator and I are close friends...."

 

[fusangite]

My first thoughts are that my paladin does not want to carry on with the group due every one else not taking sides.

That's one option. On the other hand, in some belief systems, hanging out with the sinners and trying to reform them not by arguing but by setting an example is where it's at. You can go that route too if you feel like it. Continuing to act with compassion and trying to persuade the others to see correctness of your ways. Perhaps you could take it upon yourself to prove that not all goblins necessarily grow up to be evil. Being pious does not always mean being judgemental.

But hesees his feats means that he needs to kill all goblins on sight. He has all ready killed two goblins who were surrending instead of questioning them.

Can I ask: what book is this from? I'm not much up on the various prestige classes so I'm curious how much the rules are the thing creating this problem.

 

[swrushing]

So I guess I'm really looking for advice on the whole mess too
Ellie.

Ok so first a couple questions...

1. What was the right answer to the challenge of "goblin kiddies"?
What did you, when you setup the encounter, figure the "right thing to do" for handling the tent of goblin kiddies was for the characters?
are there in towns places for these children to be taken and turned over to be cared for so that the characters know what is normally done?
is the custom among people to kill them to prevent further raids later or to not just let them starve?
What had you figured out before hand as the "answer" the characters should reach to?

2. Didn't you see the conflict coming from this sort of challenge (goblins after all, not orcs or undead or any other bad kiddies that the dwarf doesn't have a hate-on-for) and if so, what did you expect for how the party resolves it?
Didn't you expect a paladin to defend children and someone whose background is hate goblins to want to kill them?
if this party hasn't shown itself to handle interparty conflicts well, why throw such a lit match into their gasoline laden playground?

I will have to wait for answers before being more specific but my two pieces of advice would be...

1. before throwing morality conundrums at a party make sure you have an answer for "what is the right way to handle this", try to make it have at least two or more "right ways" and that those "right ways" are working with your game ("no we cannot take them back to the village 'cause we only have two days to save the princess.")

2. if your players/party if fraught with internal conflicts and "player trouble", lay off on the flashpoint scenarios that are likely to stir up trouble. Throw scenarios and challenges they can all get on the same page with so things can calm down and good relationships can develop.

 

[Sundragon2012]

Their is a druid grove near and my plan was to approach the head druid and ask for his assistant. One of my long term goals for my paladin is to set up settlements to help enlighten creatures who have strayed. THis was going to be my first challenge. I thought it would bring some good roleplaying experience.

This sounds good for this particular situation, however in your setting what happens to all the orphaned orc, goblin, hobgoblin children once their parents are slaughtered in wars of attrition against humans, dwarves or elves when the beasts decide to swarm local communities for plunder, slaves and food?

Do the human, elven and dwarven communities band together to give homes, food, and moral education after a war? Are there enough druids to take the hundreds or thousands of orphans who will otherwise die of starvation, predation, exposure or disease?


Chris