D&D 5E Player Facing Combat

[embee]

1 point form the die switching - a d20 has an average of 10.5 - the pc loses the .5 and the monster gains it, so you need to add a point to the pc.

1 point form the tie-winner switching.

It's not intuitive, you really gotta break down the math a few times before you see it.

But once you do, some things seem very intuitive.

Let's look at the Orc AC17 example again with a critical miss (a nat 20).

DC27 (22 plus Orc's +5 To Hit). Player adds a d20 to their AC (17). The player rolls 20. 20+17=37.

They needed to get 27. They got 37. That's a decent margin of success. Enough to perhaps justify letting the player use a reaction (if they have a reaction) to make a counterattack.

 

[DND_Reborn]

And if you make the player's mod to be AC-14, the monster attack DC becomes 8+monster's attack bonus.

Sure, obviously that could work.

 

[Charlaquin]

Instead of rolling 1d20+7, you get to roll 17d1!

Aw, hell naw! Those little Möbius strips are expensive!

 

[pming]

Hiya!

DM: "It lunges at you with it's huge pincer! Roll a Defense at +5"
Player: "I'm AC 17, so I need an 11 or UNDER.... [rolls d20]. I got a 10, +5 is 15, still under my AC. I nimbly turn sideways at the last second, barely avoiding certain death! Ha!"

That's the easiest way to work it. But it's "backwards" from how 5e works...with you always wanting to roll higher normally, but low in this "Defensive system". As long as you are cool with letting the Players know the bonus To Hit of the creature's attack, and they are cool with needing to roll LOW...well, off you go!

Basically, the idea is that the DM doesn't roll anything To Hit the PC; it's all on the PC to try and avoid not getting hit. Adv/Disadv would still work, but "in reverse" (e.g., you would need to roll 2d20 and take the LOWER if a monster was attacking you with Advantage...or you would take the HIGHER if it was attacking you with Disadvantage).

It would be...strange. Might take some getting used to, and, in the end, not sure if the trade off would be worth it.

TL;DR = Basically, the Player is rolling the monsters To Hit, not the DM, is what it really boils down to.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[CubicsRube]

I don't understand why this is being made so complicated. Roll20 even has custom options on the character sheet for 5e that'll do it for you automatically.

I love making players roll. I like fast combats and so my turns as dm will often be somethig like:
"The 3 goblins with scimitars rush over and attack paul, DC 15. The orc with an axd charges Sam and swings, DC 17, and the orc with the javelin throws it at beth, dc 16" (or whatever).

Then i have the players roll defense and tell me what they got hit with.

It's way faster as they are all rolling and calculating simultaneously.

 

[embee]

Gave it a quick test drive during Saturday's session. Combat moved FAST. Once the players got their heads around it (which didn't take that long), I was just calling out a DC for them to make.

Me: Okay Cabba - the war chief is going against you with two attacks of its greataxe. Hit a 28 to dodge
Cabba: 14 and 16. Plus my AC16.
Me: Both miss. You effortless slide out of the way of his axe, frustrating him to no end. Good job. Arcene, the anchorite slashes at you. DC27.
Arcene: 18AC plus... 16.
Me: The anchorite slashes at empty air. Another anchorite moves toward you, slashing at you.
Arcene: 20...
Me: Critical miss. The anchorite oversteps and you see an opening.
Arcene: Can I riposte?
Me: Sure.

A lot less talking from me. A whole lot less rolling by me. And the combat seemed more fluid too because I'm not sitting there fumbling with paper and dice.

Making everything that much easier, on Roll20, I have the bubbles set up so that, left to right, for monsters, they are

(TO HIT BONUS) (HIT POINTS) (ARMOR CLASS)

Those are the nitty-gritty that I need to know at a glance. Much easier. I instantly see what to add to 22 for the DC to defend against.

 

[CubicsRube]

Gave it a quick test drive during Saturday's session. Combat moved FAST. Once the players got their heads around it (which didn't take that long), I was just calling out a DC for them to make.



A lot less talking from me. A whole lot less rolling by me. And the combat seemed more fluid too because I'm not sitting there fumbling with paper and dice.

Making everything that much easier, on Roll20, I have the bubbles set up so that, left to right, for monsters, they are

(TO HIT BONUS) (HIT POINTS) (ARMOR CLASS)

Those are the nitty-gritty that I need to know at a glance. Much easier. I instantly see what to add to 22 for the DC to defend against.

Glad to hear you're getting something out of it!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Gave it a quick test drive during Saturday's session. Combat moved FAST.

It's way faster as they are all rolling and calculating simultaneously.

Interesting. I've thought about trying it but never committed to it. I am always looking for ways to speed up combat and make it more engaging. I am sure I can combine it with my cinematic initiative variant and see how the two work together.

@embee, how are you doing your calculations? Are you using the chart from the other page or something else?

 

[embee]

Interesting. I've thought about trying it but never committed to it. I am always looking for ways to speed up combat and make it more engaging. I am sure I can combine it with my cinematic initiative variant and see how the two work together.

@embee, how are you doing your calculations? Are you using the chart from the other page or something else?

For the DC, it's literally just adding 22 to the monster's To Hit bonus. The player rolls d20 and adds the result to their AC.

The Orc vs AC17 Player is a really good breakdown.

The Orc has a +5 to hit. Plus 22 is DC27. Player has an AC17. If they roll a 10 or higher, they dodge the attack.

That's a 55% chance to dodge. If I were to roll for the Orc, I'd have to roll a 12 or higher (12 + the +5 To Hit). That's a 45% chance to hit. It's a perfect mirror image.

It makes for very smooth play. Consider a player who wants to split their movement.

Player: I move to attack the Orc.
DM: You get in range and provoke an OA. The Orc rolls a 14. What's your AC again?
Player: 17
DM: Okay. So you move in to hit him with your blade and as you close in, he takes a swing at you and misses. Roll your attack.
Player: 16
DM: You hit. You slash his shoulder. Roll damage.
Player: 9
DM: He roars in pain, furious, as you carve a deep gash in his shoulder, your blade red with his blood.
Player: I use the rest of my movement to back up 10'
DM: You provoke another OA. The Orc rolls a 2. So he misses. In his blind rage of pain, the orc swings at nothing but air as you pull back to a safe position.

Player: I move to attack the Orc.
DM: You get in range and provoke an OA. He's got a +5. Hit a 27. And roll your attack too.
Player: 13. Plus 17 is 30. And I also roll 16.
DM: Great. You move in to hit him with your blade. As you close in, he takes a swing at you but you artfully sidestep his scimitar and answer by slashing his shoulder. Roll damage.
Player: 9
DM: He roars in pain, furious, as you carve a deep gash in his shoulder, your blade red with his blood.
Player: I use the rest of my movement to back up 10'
DM: You provoke another OA. Hit 27
Player: 19. Plus 17 is...
DM: He completely misses you. In his blind rage of pain, the orc swings at nothing but air as you pull back to a safe position.

I think the second one moves quicker. Actions and reactions can be resolved at the same time, allowing for a smoother flow.

The player is the one doing the rolls, trying to actively make a DC. It doesn't take up more time because the player can roll his dodge and his attack at the same time. The only meta information that the player "learns" about a monster is its To Hit bonus. That can be explained in-game as these characters are blooded in battle. They have enough experience in real-life combat to be able to gauge the threat an enemy poses.

That exchange has 3 attacks in it - 2 by the Orc and 1 by the player. But now the player is doing all of the active rolling and the DM is narrating. Which, when you think about, is actually closer to the DM's original role - to referee.

I'm not the biggest fan of Professor DM (I disagree on quite a few of his streamlining ideas and he veers a bit far into grognardism time and again) but on this, he seems to be spot on. Player Facing Combat (or PAR) seems to work a bit smoother, especially for larger encounters. I've got another session on Saturday and I'll have plenty of random encounters to run another battery of tests.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For the DC, it's literally just adding 22 to the monster's To Hit bonus. The player rolls d20 and adds the result to their AC.

Ok, so it is really the same, just 10 points higher for each (you use attack bonus +22 instead of +12, and AC instead of AC - 10).

FWIW, just checking, but if you want to speed things up a bit more have players roll damage and attack together so they won't wait to roll damage. Some tables or players use it to also make combat faster. I've never been a big fan of it, but you can try it if you aren't already doing it.

Anyway, weather permitting we'll be playing Saturday and maybe give this a shot. I have thought about players always rolling (as I heard it termed, PAR) a while ago, and might go all the way with allowing them to roll damage.

Are you having them roll saving throws as well?