Player: "I need to level up so I can do cool stuff!"

[Vegepygmy]

"I need to level up so I can do cool stuff!"

Ugh. I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything inherently "cooler" about higher-level abilities. What's "cool" to me is doing something relatively awesome with what you have available. Many of my "coolest" moments as a player have been as a low-level character. It's getting an unexpected critical hit when you desperately need it, or the elaborate plan you made to infiltrate the evil warlord's keep coming to fruition.

"I'm 5th level, now I can fling fireballs" just doesn't impress me a bit. Anyone who is 5th level can do that; I don't see why that's "cool."

I don't mean to accuse anyone of badwrongfun (honestly I don't), but "I need to level up so I can do cool stuff" is a point of view that I just can't relate to at all. If you really can't do "cool stuff" at whatever level you are right now, you'll never be able to do "cool stuff" in my eyes.

 

[Rechan]

But do try to give him some cool things to do now.

There are several mindsets when it comes to gaming. But for both players and DMs, there's two opposing mindsets that I'd like to point out.

1) The Players make the adventure. In that they may as a group decide "Hey let's buy a boat, sail around and fight pirates, explore islands". Or one player may decide "Hey I want to be a sea captain" "I want to found my own cult who worship me as a great hero" and "I want to create a new race", those are their goals and they pursue them as hard as they can.

The DM says, "Well, I shall put forth opportunities to do that. I shall seed tales of an ancient wizard who managed to create his own race, and tempt the player to find his scattered texts. I shall offer a small ship at first and give one player the option of seizing larger ships if he is wily. I shall give the other player a few disciples, and give him opportunities where his explots are spread far and wide, and people come to him to worship. As well as chances to convert people to him."

The Players decide to lead with their goals. The DM makes each adventure (or every other adventure) a step towards those goals. Players set their destination, and the DM draws their map.

2) The DM says, "Alright in this adventure, you guys will be sailing around in a ship." The players say, "Ok. We're diding in this ship. Fighting pirates. Yo ho." Then the next adventure, "In order to tackle this, you will have to get people to worship you like a cult figure." "Hey everybody, check out these impressive feats I'm doing, you should worship me." The DM says, "To win the day, you must create your own race. Here's how you do that." "Let's give'm big breasts."

The DM decides the direction of the adventure or the campaign, and the players follow suit. They look to the DM to both set the destination and draw the map, and while they may detour at some points, they still are following the DM's lead.

In my experience, most players and DMs fall into #2. If that's how you like it, it's ok. But even if you are a DM who wants to run a game like #1, it's tough to break your players out of the mindset of #2. They are used to the DM handing them the adventure, and they reacting to it.

If the gaming style at the table, or the player, is not the pursue something type (the pro-active "I shall seek out and make happen what I think is cool"), then the adventure is limited to the opportunities for cool the DM hands to the players. If the player thinks constructing tactics or plans is cool, then an adventure where they have a day to prepare a town's defenses against a giant raid, or must devise a way to extract the secret documents from a locked box in the secure bank would have opportunities for the player to do something cool. Escorting the princess through the troll-infested swamp would have few to no opportunities for this player to do what they think is cool.

If your player isn't thinking outside the box on how to be cool with what he has now, then you have to make the box so that the preferred thinking is inside it.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Spellcasters feel that even more keenly than other characters. Sorcerors even more (because at least a wizard can have the perfect spell in his spellbook. Sorcerors rarely do).

I'm not a pathfinder player, so perhaps the game has remedied this, but let's face it, outside of spells, a sorceror is pretty much a peasant. In fact he's often a little worse off than that, because he'll usually feel pressured to burn his precious 2 skill points per level on concentration and arcana, at the same time focussing on charisma as his primary stat which limits his "cool things that aren't spells" even further than most spellcasters.

I haven't played Pathfinded, but there're a couple things to help deal with this. One: Concentration isn't a skill, it's built in so it won't take skill points (but the DCs are increased, and it can't be boosted like other skills). That frees up some skill points. They also get unlimited cantrips (level 0s), which is at least something to do. Additionally, Sorcerers get bloodlines, which give some nice effects (Sorcerer - Pathfinder_OGC).

For example, the Celestial Bloodline:

Class Skill: Heal

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell of the summoning subschool, the creatures summoned gain DR/evil equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1). This does not stack with any DR the creature might have.

Heavenly Fire (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of heavenly fire as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. This damage is divine and not subject to energy resistance or immunity. This ray heals good creatures of 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. A good creature cannot benefit from your heavenly fire more than once per day. Neutral creatures are neither harmed nor healed by this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

And then you get a few free spells (like Bless at Sorcerer level 3), and a few free feats to choose from.

Here's another bloodline (Elemental):

Class Skill: Knowledge (planes).

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.

Elemental Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

One last bloodline (Orc):

Class Skill: Survival.

Bloodline Arcana: You gain the orc subtype, including darkvision 60 feet and light sensitivity. If you already have darkvision, its range increases to 90 feet. Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

At any rate, they're definitely better than a commoner (d6 hit die, good Will saves, simple weapons, Bloodlines [around 20ish on the SRD], new skills [Intimidate, Appraise, Use Magic Device, etc.], unlimited cantrips, Eschew Materials, etc.). Pathfinder did try to alleviate caster exhaustion at low levels.

Anyways, sorry for the slight derail! The Auld Grump would know a lot more (he runs it, I've just looked at it!). As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

Ugh. I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything inherently "cooler" about higher-level abilities. What's "cool" to me is doing something relatively awesome with what you have available. Many of my "coolest" moments as a player have been as a low-level character. It's getting an unexpected critical hit when you desperately need it, or the elaborate plan you made to infiltrate the evil warlord's keep coming to fruition.

"I'm 5th level, now I can fling fireballs" just doesn't impress me a bit. Anyone who is 5th level can do that; I don't see why that's "cool."

I don't mean to accuse anyone of badwrongfun (honestly I don't), but "I need to level up so I can do cool stuff" is a point of view that I just can't relate to at all. If you really can't do "cool stuff" at whatever level you are right now, you'll never be able to do "cool stuff" in my eyes.

Let's stick with this example. At 4th level, depending on system, a wizard doesn't really have any Big Bang spells. There's a couple, Web, Stinking Cloud, but, neither of those are giant balls of fire.

I always see 5th level for wizards as one of the big jumps. They go from having very few spells to having a lot more, for one. Depending on edition and class, you could be gaining 3 3rd level spells, and an extra 1st (IIRC) per day going from 4th to 5th. That's a HUGE jump.

5th, at least in my mind, 5th is one of the real big "Wow" moments (not the video game) for wizards. I could totally see looking forward to 5th level. You go from being a peasant with a big gun to actually being a wizard most of the time.

 

[Saeviomagy]

At any rate, they're definitely better than a commoner (d6 hit die, good Will saves, simple weapons, Bloodlines [around 20ish on the SRD], new skills [Intimidate, Appraise, Use Magic Device, etc.], unlimited cantrips, Eschew Materials, etc.). Pathfinder did try to alleviate caster exhaustion at low levels.

Exhaustion wasn't even the problem. The problem was that a sorceror had so few options outside of spells, and so few spell options.

And it certainly does seem that pathfinder has remedied that somewhat.

Rechan - I hate to say it, but I look at the list of things you give and the world of D&D as the books lay it out and I think "if the mechanics of this game mean anything at all, then none of that's going to be achievable at low level". So it doesn't stop the "hey, in a few levels I'll be able to do something cool!". Now, that said, you can still work towards those cool things. You just don't expect to get them without levelling up a bunch first.

I think the only real way to stop people from looking forward to being higher level is to not run a level based game.

 

[WheresMyD20]

one of my players is like that, to the point where he demands certain treasure in order for him to 'play how he wants to play'

now it is different with me, that player is my dad so I can't really kick him out of the group without risking..you know...no longer being fed

but the best option is to ignore that, if it continues then don't deal with him...or in other words, kick him out.

You can make the best of this situation by telling your dad that he can have more treasure so he can "play how he wants to play" if he gives you more allowance so that you can "play how you want to play".

Maybe you can even offer him a dragon mount in exchange for a nice, new sports car.

 

[pemerton]

"I need to level up so I can do cool stuff!"

And is it just me, or is there something inherently.....not wrong, but disingenuous? Misguided, perhaps, in saying that?

<snip>

I wish I would have said, "Why is 'doing cool stuff' limited to the stuff that's on your character sheet? You're telling me your character can't explore, interact, plot, discover, and fight using interesting tactics based on your current capabilities? As if suddenly when you get your next feat/spell/class ability you'll suddenly be able to 'play your character' better?"

<snip>

I'm wondering if there's anything I can do circumstantially to get him to temporarily look at his character from a different angle other than, "I can't cast level 3 spells yet, my sorcerer sucks"?

"I'm 5th level, now I can fling fireballs" just doesn't impress me a bit. Anyone who is 5th level can do that; I don't see why that's "cool."

I don't mean to accuse anyone of badwrongfun (honestly I don't), but "I need to level up so I can do cool stuff" is a point of view that I just can't relate to at all. If you really can't do "cool stuff" at whatever level you are right now, you'll never be able to do "cool stuff" in my eyes.

I can't say much about the player in question, but I've always assumed that in any game with level-based PC development part of the pleasure of play is gradually building and shaping your PC over the course of those levels.

In D&D I think this is particularly so, because (as others have noted upthread) a number of "signature abilities" - like Lightning Bolt, building a tower or stronghold, etc - are level-dependent.

I certainly agree that "cool things" can go beyond the character sheet, to engaging interesting situations in an interesting way ("explore, interact, plot, discover, and fight"). But I can see why what is on the character sheet would also be an important part of it. For example, if my conception of my PC is as a shapechanger, D&D is going to make me wait a while before I realise that conception in the build of my PC.

And the fact that any AD&D druid or magic-user of 7th level can be a shapechanger doesn't have to make it less cool to be playinge one - the reason it's cool to play a shapechanger isn't because there is anything unique (in conception or realisation) about being a shapechanger, but because being a shapechanger is fun!

And D&D has some funny quirks here. The last time I played in an AD&D game - many, many years ago now - it was 2nd ed with Skills and Powers. My conception of my PC was as a very militant cleric expelled from his homeland and therefore having had to forsake the inheritance of his noble birth. I was able to implement this conception at 1st level - cleric tweaked via skills and powers to be more of a fighter, wearing heavy armour, fighting with a mace, and having the cavalier kit.

Whereas the player who wanted her magic-user to have fireball as a signature spell had to wait four levels.

And even in 3E, the player who wants a swashbuckling rogue has to wait until 2nd level to take Weapon Finesse. And for many viable multi-class mage options, you have to wait until 7th level or higher as the relevant prestige class kicks in.

I don't think there's anything particularly virtuous about happening to prefer a character conception that can be realised from 1st level, nor particularly wrong with wishing that you would hurry up and get to the level where your conception can be realised. At worst, it seems a bit futile to wish that the game's build rules were different from what they are - any level- and class-based system is probably going to have this consequence, that some builds can be realised at first level but others can't.

 

[Rechan]

Rechan - I hate to say it, but I look at the list of things you give and the world of D&D as the books lay it out and I think "if the mechanics of this game mean anything at all, then none of that's going to be achievable at low level". So it doesn't stop the "hey, in a few levels I'll be able to do something cool!". Now, that said, you can still work towards those cool things. You just don't expect to get them without levelling up a bunch first.

Well yes that's why I said goals.

I once played in an Exalted game. The DM told us we had to go out and seek adventure, we were responsible for having goals and pursuing them.

Initially we were still very young Exalts and needed to get our sea legs. But then we started nation building and acquiring resources. It was a slow process, but it built on itself. We didn't get our country right away - we had to go and make it happen.

If a PC wants to be the head of a thieves guild, he's got to work for it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Ugh. I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything inherently "cooler" about higher-level abilities. What's "cool" to me is doing something relatively awesome with what you have available. Many of my "coolest" moments as a player have been as a low-level character. It's getting an unexpected critical hit when you desperately need it, or the elaborate plan you made to infiltrate the evil warlord's keep coming to fruition.

"I'm 5th level, now I can fling fireballs" just doesn't impress me a bit. Anyone who is 5th level can do that; I don't see why that's "cool."

I don't mean to accuse anyone of badwrongfun (honestly I don't), but "I need to level up so I can do cool stuff" is a point of view that I just can't relate to at all. If you really can't do "cool stuff" at whatever level you are right now, you'll never be able to do "cool stuff" in my eyes.

Yarp.

Cool stuff is what you do with whatever resources that you have at your disposal at a given time.
Not enjoying the current adventure is a separate issue IMHO. If you really loathe going on what seems like a peasant's mission would being able to shoot fireballs out of your arse really make the adventure more enjoyable?

 

[MrMyth]

A lot of good advice already. I'd say the big thing is to try and figure out exactly why he is feeling unable to 'do cool stuff'.

Is it that he feels that other characters do get to shine, and he doesn't? Some of that can be handled by customizing encounters to give him opportunities to do cool things. If it comes down to a system issue (where his character, at low levels, just isn't as effective as some others) it is much harder to tackle. But should, hopefully, eventually become less of an issue.

It is great in theory to want characters to really get into roleplaying, exploring, improvising, etc - but remember that the goal of the game is to have fun. A player coming to you and indicating that they aren't doesn't necessarily mean you need to change your game, but is probably worth considering why they feel that way rather than chalking it up to a failing on their behalf. And once you do get to the heart of the matter, you may well find it is something you can address as the DM - and everyone wins!