the Jester
Legend
Xilo said:
Unless the bad guy have, hmm, 5? ranks in Balance, he loses his dex bonus while balancing. When you're in a grease spell, you're balancing.
Player issue - help with a rogue
- Thread starter Xilo
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Unless the bad guy have, hmm, 5? ranks in Balance, he loses his dex bonus while balancing. When you're in a grease spell, you're balancing.
Olaf the Stout
Legend
the Jester said:Unless the bad guy have, hmm, 5? ranks in Balance, he loses his dex bonus while balancing. When you're in a grease spell, you're balancing.
It is 5 ranks in Balance. I just looked it up. I never knew that you were considered flat-footed while balancing. This makes the Grease spell even better than before. I'll have to get my Wizard to cast it more often. I'm sure the party Rogue will appreciate it. Not many bad guys (or PC's for that matter) normally bother putting 5 ranks into balance.
Olaf the Stout
Olaf the Stout
Legend
And to the OP, why is the Cleric not getting into melee? In my campaign the straight Fighter is an archer and very rarely gets into melee.
The Cleric, on the other hand, is normally one of the first to charge into melee. He is normally pretty effective at it too. He has the Strength domain and makes great use of Bull Strength and Enlarge Person to create a very effective melee combatant. Once he gets 4th level spells and can cast Divine Power he will be an absolute combat monster. I don't see why your group shouldn't be similar.
If the Cleric in your party was in melee it would give the bad guys someone bigger to worry about than the Rogue and he would also have someone to flank with to get SA damage.
Olaf the Stout
The Cleric, on the other hand, is normally one of the first to charge into melee. He is normally pretty effective at it too. He has the Strength domain and makes great use of Bull Strength and Enlarge Person to create a very effective melee combatant. Once he gets 4th level spells and can cast Divine Power he will be an absolute combat monster. I don't see why your group shouldn't be similar.
If the Cleric in your party was in melee it would give the bad guys someone bigger to worry about than the Rogue and he would also have someone to flank with to get SA damage.
Olaf the Stout
Erywin
First Post
Olaf the Stout said:
Doh I knew it was either Tumble or Balance, darn 50% miss chance
I think I need to convince somebody to pick it up in the party as it would benefit our rogue as well. Altho we do have a Swordsage that makes liberal use of the stance thats allows you to flank threatened creatures from any square.Cheers,
E
Arkhandus
First Post
One thing the Wizard could do to help is buff the Rogue with Enlarge Person and perhaps Mage Armor or Bear's Endurance. That'll help a bit with the Rogue's melee survivability and damage-dealing.
The Cleric should cast Shield Other on the Rogue, so that the Cleric remotely absorbs some of the damage suffered by the Rogue. That way, the Cleric can focus a bit more on healing himself once in a while, rather than on constantly rushing into the fray to heal the Rogue, at least sometimes. And this only really requires the Cleric to waste 1 turn and 1 spell (though probably more than that if they fight several battles a day).
Personally though, I would suggest you or the Rogue's player gets the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.
Then he can multiclass 1 or more levels into Swordsage or Warblade, maybe multiclass into the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class later on if he feels like it. Since he's already fairly well into his Rogue levels, this won't be a substantial power boost, but it will DEFINITELY help him out in melee, and even in his sneakiness.
Maneuvers use something similar to spell slots, but without level differentiations (a martial adept class just gets a certain number of maneuvers readied; using a maneuver removes it from their readied selection, until they do something to recover that maneuver, which depends on the class; maneuvers are recovered freely at the end of an encounter also). So a martial adept can use a handful of maneuvers in combat, but each can only be used once, until the character takes an appropriate action to recover that maneuver.
Swordsages can recover one maneuver with a full-round action (or maybe it was a standard action, I forget), while Warblades has to use a standard attack to recover all of their readied maneuvers (but they can't use maneuvers on that turn). Crusaders have a wierder mechanic for it, and aren't the kind of class your party's Rogue is likely to take. Stances work all the time, but a character can only have one Stance active at any given time, and needs to use a Swift action (same as casting a Quickened spell, so it can't be done in the same round as another Swift action) to change their active Stance. Only the highest-level characters of a particular class or two can use more than one Stance at a time. Martial adept classes learn a specific number of maneuvers and stances based on their level in the class.
Swordsages have access to the Shadow Hand discipline, so they can learn maneuvers and stances that make them stealthier and more deadly with Sneak Attacks (the Assassin's Stance, a 3rd-level stance, grants something like +1d6 or +2d6 to Sneak Attack). Shadow Hand includes maneuvers for short-range teleportation through shadows, and maneuvers for 1-round invisibility, or incorporeality I think (for one of the upper or middle-level maneuvers), as well as maneuvers that grant concealment (without giving the enemy concealment against the character), which would allow the Rogue to try moving somewhere to hide with a Hide check, in order to Sneak Attack on the next round or something (concealment is generally needed to attempt Hide checks, if not using a Bluff check to create a diversion to hide).
Besides the tricky stuff in Shadow Hand, there are some SH maneuvers that just boost damage, or improve your accuracy, or incur a bit of extra damage and some side-effect (like temporary Strength damage). SH even has one or two short ranged attacks, like Shadow Garrote (which is 2nd or 3rd level, I forget which). Also, regarding Shadow Hand, there's a cool feat available to people who learn a few bits of that discipline (I think it requires an SH stance and an SH maneuver, or somesuch), the Shadow Blade feat; this adds their Dexterity bonus to damage with particular weapons.
Other disciplines are available too, though Warblades have access to slightly different ones from Swordsages (the former have access to 4 or 5 disciplines, focused on physical might, mental focus, and leadership, while the latter have access to 6 of the 9 disciplines, excluding only Devoted Spirit, which is Crusader-only, Iron Heart, which is Warblade-only, and White Raven, which is exclusive to both Crusaders and Warblades). Most of the disciplines are focused on melee prowess of one kind or another; frex, Stone Dragon and Iron Heart are all about physical force and strength of will, whereas Setting Sun and Desert Wind are all about finesse and tricks (though DW is also about fire...). The other disciplines are Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, the former emphasizing mental focus and reflexes, the latter emphasizing savage fighting and limited offensive shapeshifting.
For a Swordsage, the Desert Wind and Stone Dragon disciplines are good for dealing out big damage, but Iron Heart is better for Warblades I think. Diamond Mind is also very potent for damage, but you have to spend a lot of skill ranks on Concentration to make any decent use of the Diamond Mind offensive techniques, which include Focused Strike (IIRC), Superior Focused Strike (IIRC), Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Ruby Nightmare Blade, and Diamond Nightmare Blade, and there's a few others that don't rely on Concentration (IIRC, I don't have the book on hand). Actually, right now I can't remember if the Nightmare Blade maneuvers all use a Concentration check or not, I forget. Stupid me. :\
The Cleric should cast Shield Other on the Rogue, so that the Cleric remotely absorbs some of the damage suffered by the Rogue. That way, the Cleric can focus a bit more on healing himself once in a while, rather than on constantly rushing into the fray to heal the Rogue, at least sometimes. And this only really requires the Cleric to waste 1 turn and 1 spell (though probably more than that if they fight several battles a day).
Personally though, I would suggest you or the Rogue's player gets the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.
Then he can multiclass 1 or more levels into Swordsage or Warblade, maybe multiclass into the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class later on if he feels like it. Since he's already fairly well into his Rogue levels, this won't be a substantial power boost, but it will DEFINITELY help him out in melee, and even in his sneakiness.
Maneuvers use something similar to spell slots, but without level differentiations (a martial adept class just gets a certain number of maneuvers readied; using a maneuver removes it from their readied selection, until they do something to recover that maneuver, which depends on the class; maneuvers are recovered freely at the end of an encounter also). So a martial adept can use a handful of maneuvers in combat, but each can only be used once, until the character takes an appropriate action to recover that maneuver.
Swordsages can recover one maneuver with a full-round action (or maybe it was a standard action, I forget), while Warblades has to use a standard attack to recover all of their readied maneuvers (but they can't use maneuvers on that turn). Crusaders have a wierder mechanic for it, and aren't the kind of class your party's Rogue is likely to take. Stances work all the time, but a character can only have one Stance active at any given time, and needs to use a Swift action (same as casting a Quickened spell, so it can't be done in the same round as another Swift action) to change their active Stance. Only the highest-level characters of a particular class or two can use more than one Stance at a time. Martial adept classes learn a specific number of maneuvers and stances based on their level in the class.
Swordsages have access to the Shadow Hand discipline, so they can learn maneuvers and stances that make them stealthier and more deadly with Sneak Attacks (the Assassin's Stance, a 3rd-level stance, grants something like +1d6 or +2d6 to Sneak Attack). Shadow Hand includes maneuvers for short-range teleportation through shadows, and maneuvers for 1-round invisibility, or incorporeality I think (for one of the upper or middle-level maneuvers), as well as maneuvers that grant concealment (without giving the enemy concealment against the character), which would allow the Rogue to try moving somewhere to hide with a Hide check, in order to Sneak Attack on the next round or something (concealment is generally needed to attempt Hide checks, if not using a Bluff check to create a diversion to hide).
Besides the tricky stuff in Shadow Hand, there are some SH maneuvers that just boost damage, or improve your accuracy, or incur a bit of extra damage and some side-effect (like temporary Strength damage). SH even has one or two short ranged attacks, like Shadow Garrote (which is 2nd or 3rd level, I forget which). Also, regarding Shadow Hand, there's a cool feat available to people who learn a few bits of that discipline (I think it requires an SH stance and an SH maneuver, or somesuch), the Shadow Blade feat; this adds their Dexterity bonus to damage with particular weapons.
Other disciplines are available too, though Warblades have access to slightly different ones from Swordsages (the former have access to 4 or 5 disciplines, focused on physical might, mental focus, and leadership, while the latter have access to 6 of the 9 disciplines, excluding only Devoted Spirit, which is Crusader-only, Iron Heart, which is Warblade-only, and White Raven, which is exclusive to both Crusaders and Warblades). Most of the disciplines are focused on melee prowess of one kind or another; frex, Stone Dragon and Iron Heart are all about physical force and strength of will, whereas Setting Sun and Desert Wind are all about finesse and tricks (though DW is also about fire...). The other disciplines are Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, the former emphasizing mental focus and reflexes, the latter emphasizing savage fighting and limited offensive shapeshifting.
For a Swordsage, the Desert Wind and Stone Dragon disciplines are good for dealing out big damage, but Iron Heart is better for Warblades I think. Diamond Mind is also very potent for damage, but you have to spend a lot of skill ranks on Concentration to make any decent use of the Diamond Mind offensive techniques, which include Focused Strike (IIRC), Superior Focused Strike (IIRC), Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Ruby Nightmare Blade, and Diamond Nightmare Blade, and there's a few others that don't rely on Concentration (IIRC, I don't have the book on hand). Actually, right now I can't remember if the Nightmare Blade maneuvers all use a Concentration check or not, I forget. Stupid me. :\
Moon-Lancer
First Post
Xilo said:
I think Invisablade is a very good 5 level prc. Our group changed the pre reqs. The ones listed were for a 10 level prc that also had master thrower build in. Basicly the pre reqs are typo.
We changed the feat pre reqs to two weapon fighting, Combat reflexes, Weapon focus (dagger... or whatever).
The pre reqs may have been a tad too easy, I suggest changing two weapon fighting to something else, but thats up to you of course.
The invisablade character in our group took 3 levels in rouge 2 levels in fighter and 3 levels in invisablade.
So far he has the highest hit, and highest ac. He is a halfing who started out with 19(17) dex and has improved no other stats but that. he is still a bit of a glass cannon and he is still only useful in some situations and not at all in others, but when hes hot he is hot.
Last edited:
Hairfoot
First Post
As DM, something you can do is set up situations which allow the rogue to be first-striker. How about letting him sneak into a room and silently dispatch some low-level nasties before the grande melee starts?
I like to use my rogue PCs as chuckers. If alchemical items are common in your game, a rogue can be a party's best friend with some well-placed smokesticks, thunderstones, or even the vile tanglefoot bag (if it's allowed).
I like to use my rogue PCs as chuckers. If alchemical items are common in your game, a rogue can be a party's best friend with some well-placed smokesticks, thunderstones, or even the vile tanglefoot bag (if it's allowed).
wildstarsreach
First Post
Xilo said:
We recently went through this in our game. We had a dagger spell mage who felt that he was useless. We are 6th level. He just changed to a scout ranger with some really usefull complete scoundrel feat such as improved skirmish and swift hunter.
Our party consists of a duskblade that I play, a ranged ranger, a 1/2 orc fighter, a conjurer, and a cleric with an archivist cohort and or course our new scout ranger.
I agree that a thief really is dependant in combat on others for the most part. He needs to be really smart about this. Improved feint and bluff can be really useful.
I've currently got a LA+0 Drow ninja in play that is going to be heavily multiclassed with a couple of PrC's. Ninja/Ranger/Fighter/swahbuckler/monk and scorpion wraith PrC. This is though 15th level. It is an interesting build since we are only at 3rd at present. My character uses the Kusari-gama out of OA and this allows him to attack at range and up close without the short haft feat. When playing a thieving type, I think that this type of character is completely dependant on party tactics.
Eytan Bernstein
Explorer
We would need to know how the character is built to see how he could be improved. It sounds like the player has no game plan for how to get his sneak attacks across. If no one else goes into melee, perhaps he should be focusing on ranged attacks as well.
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