Player Problems with Character Wealth

[swrushing]

you are both right...

the cr estimates are based on useful gear of the general level, thats part of how they figure if magic weapons would be normally there, etc. So, too little gear or too much gear will have an effect on challenge.

and even with that, the chart is a guideline, not an order.

Have they been having problems with the challenges you present to them? is there a reason for them to feel they are being overwhelmed? if so, that probably needs addressing in your designs.

But, on a more fundamental level, if your players are dissatisfied with your game, this part of it at least, whether you agree with them or not, you do need to take their complaints seriously. Clearly they expect something different.

My players regularly chew me out because their characters do not have the "appropriate" character wealth, as seen on pg. 135 of the 3.5 DMG.

I don't think that the chart in the DMG is supposed to be followed to the letter - it's just a guideline, and if you don't have that much (or if you have more), it's not a big deal. Obviously, my players believe otherwise.

 

[Belen]

I have had bad experiences using that darn wealth by level chart. In my experience, it caused too many problems. The players constantly checked it to make sure that they were equal to everyone else. It caused too many arguments etc.

After we sat down and discussed it as a group, we all realized that we had been much happier when we did not worry about who had what and whether everyone has enough for their level.

I disagree that the CRs are based on equipment. I believe that the CRs are based on having a Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, and Fighter in the party. In most cases, Wizard and Cleric spells can easily sub for deficient magic items, such as the Greater Magic Weapon and Align Weapon spells.

And the GM makes the challenges. If they are CR 8 and fighting CR 6 monsters, then it can still be challenging.

I would recommend that you not open the wealth by level can of worms.

 

[mythusmage]

Which is to say, they don't trust the DM to not throw challenges at the party that are beyond their capabilities.

It's not my job to present you with challenges you can handle, it is your job to learn how to handle the challenges I present you.

"I don't care if he is a kobold, I aint pesterin' nobody with a Staff of Wizardry."

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

It's not my job to present you with challenges you can handle, it is your job to learn how to handle the challenges I present you.

All that means is that now your players have to trust you to accurately present the scale of those challenges, and set them out there in a reasonably consistent way. If they approach an encounter cautiously to gauge whether it's something they can handle or not, they need to know that their questions will be answered accurately (within the limits of their character's skills, etc., of course) with a minimum of chain-jerking. Likewise, they need to be confident that in the setting you're running, the BBEG behind the small-time cutpurse ring they've declared vendetta against isn't a five thousand year old red dragon with two demiliches guarding his office.

And if they can trust you with that, then you're golden. You can just put the challenges out there in the gameworld wherever they make sense, and no one will be able to call you a jerk when the TPK comes crashing down.

Sadly, while I've met a few GMs who strongly believed that "it's the players' job to face the challenges in front of them," I've only met one, maybe two who could actually be trusted to do it well; not enough to make me think it's particularly easy for a GM to pull off, and not enough to properly sell me on the philosophy. I saw a lot of the bad ones wave that theory around as a lame excuse for why a game crashed and burned ("it's not MY fault if the players were TOO STUPID to do that..."). :\

But, y'know, those one or two GMs who got it right...I'd be very happy to play with them again.

--
as i think anyone would

 

[Timely Drought]

I prefer to keep the players close to their expected wealth. It means that they can face more varied challenges, and they have more options to overcome challenges. I don't need to check as much to make sure that the CR is appropriate for their abilities. They have characters that are closer to what they desire them to be capable, especially non-spellcasters.

Is there a reason you want them to be poor? I don't understand why it bothers you to have them be close to the expected wealth level.

 

[Spatula]

Because he doesn't want the characters to be walking magic item christmas trees, is one possibility. Is the hero a hero because of who he is or because of what he posesses?

 

[Darren Ravenshaw]

All that means is that now your players have to trust you to accurately present the scale of those challenges, and set them out there in a reasonably consistent way. If they approach an encounter cautiously to gauge whether it's something they can handle or not, they need to know that their questions will be answered accurately (within the limits of their character's skills, etc., of course) with a minimum of chain-jerking. Likewise, they need to be confident that in the setting you're running, the BBEG behind the small-time cutpurse ring they've declared vendetta against isn't a five thousand year old red dragon with two demiliches guarding his office.

And if they can trust you with that, then you're golden. You can just put the challenges out there in the gameworld wherever they make sense, and no one will be able to call you a jerk when the TPK comes crashing down.

Sadly, while I've met a few GMs who strongly believed that "it's the players' job to face the challenges in front of them," I've only met one, maybe two who could actually be trusted to do it well; not enough to make me think it's particularly easy for a GM to pull off, and not enough to properly sell me on the philosophy. I saw a lot of the bad ones wave that theory around as a lame excuse for why a game crashed and burned ("it's not MY fault if the players were TOO STUPID to do that..."). :\

But, y'know, those one or two GMs who got it right...I'd be very happy to play with them again.

--
as i think anyone would

And how would the parties wealth affect the DMs ability to "accurately present the scale of those challenges"? A DM needs to determine the characters abilities to challenge them regardless if their wealth level is less then a 1st level characters, close to that stated in the DMG, or having more then a 20th level characters.

I was in two games run by the same person. In the first the party didn't aquire any magical items(not even potions or scolls) til about 7th-8th level. We ended that campaign with characters around 13th-14th level(switched to a different system and never got back to the game like usual :\ ) with no where near the listed amount.

In the second game by the time we were 5th-6th level we were given the option to draw from a deck of many things(with even the jester and fool cards returning to the deck for a new person) for 10,000gp each. Everone payed to draw using just their petty cash out of hand, without blinking an eye. When we were killed(TPK) at 11th level everone had +3 to +5 weapons, armor, shields, rings, cloaks, +4 to +6 stat boosting items, etc. We were ambushed and killed by a pair of Vrock(CR 11). Both parties were balanced class wise, ran 5-6 players, and everyone had fun(some players were more hack & slash/powergamer types).

 

[mythusmage]

All that means is that now your players have to trust you...

Yep, honesty's very important. As is being mature when the players come up with something you never expected.

"Of course it's an honest offer. If you weren't running the show this place would be a chaotic mess."

Of course, I'm the guy who created The Black Swamp Gang. A bunch of kobolds living in a place called The Black Swamp. They'd wear parties down, capture them, strip them naked, and send them back to town. With cheery instructions to, "Come back when you've got more stuff!"

 

[Timely Drought]

Because he doesn't want the characters to be walking magic item christmas trees, is one possibility.

The players are already walking magic item christmas trees. They're just less powerful then they're expected to be. If the DM is making changes to the game balance then he should adjust challenges and rewards accordingly. If he's running a low-magic (or low-wealth) campaign then he should have informed the players before starting the game.

Is the hero a hero because of who he is or because of what he posesses?

That's irrelevent to the discussion.

 

[mythusmage]

...a five thousand year old red dragon with two demiliches guarding his office...

You know, I could do something with that.

Dragon: You are resourceful. I could use you in my business. (Pointing to the lefthand demi-lich) Sir Rodney, you'll want to talk with Edna here; she's my lead paladin.