Player Problems with Character Wealth

[Ibram]

Its perfectly reasonable to run a game with very low character wealth, but the way such a game is played differs substantualy from Standard Issue D&D.

If the players stop getting big hauls when they complete an adventure, but money remains an important part of the game, the characters become even more mercenary then they already are. Since they still need the money to pay for the items and the resurection spells that keeps them going then the quest for treasure comes to dominate the game.

I've always had more fun as a DM running games where large sums of money are not needed for the plot to advance. In the games I run I dont force characters to keep track of every lenght of rope and every drop of oil, and forget about buying magic items and potions at every street corner. If as a plot device I want my characters to be broke then I tell them that they are broke, if I dont need it then I assume that they have enough cash to spend on food and to get a roof over their head.

The creatures used in such a game are different as well, as its very hard to do a monster of the week kind of game when the characters cannot afford the weapons to beat the new beasty.

To compensate I use creatures with class levels rather then big bad monsters with high DR.

 

[kigmatzomat]

My players regularly chew me out because their characters do not have the "appropriate" character wealth, as seen on pg. 135 of the 3.5 DMG. At 8th level, one character had 13k worth of items and another 16k. The players whole-heartedly believe it severely handicaps their characters' performance, and that the challenge ratings for their level are unbalanced due to their lack of funds.

Well you are talking 50% the listed wealth. That missing 11-14k equates to quite a few AC & save bonuses and probably an extra magic weapon. In all likelihood, their AC should be about 4 points higher, +2 to their saves, a spare +1 weapon (or their +1 upgraded to a +2), and some potions or other sub-1k items.

I think the wealth is fine as is. I don't think that the chart in the DMG is supposed to be followed to the letter - it's just a guideline, and if you don't have that much (or if you have more), it's not a big deal. Obviously, my players believe otherwise.

As a DM, do you always make sure your players have such?

I agree that it's a guideline, but I don't think it's a +/- 50% guideline, more like +/- 20%.

Every 2-3 levels I get my players equipment sheets, tally up their wealth and look at them both as individuals and as a group. If they are fine as a group I'm generally feeling good as a DM and then see who's out of whack. Sometimes the mage or cleric is heavy because the party dumped a lot of cash on expendable items; those are non-issues because the item is for the party as a whole. Then there's the time I dropped gear that really only worked for one character, and the solution was to be rather stingy on things that would normally be doled out to that character for a few levels.

One thing I've learned is that by having enough cash around, the players will plan more. They can afford to buy special-purpose items, potions, wands, etc because it won't require scrimping on the basic "general purpose" gear they feel they need to survive. I suspect your players have just enough to get by but the wrong special power at the right time will make their lives incredibly hard.

 

[Spatula]

I suspect your players have just enough to get by but the wrong special power at the right time will make their lives incredibly hard.

And who determines what special powers get thrown at the PCs? The same person who hands out treasure.

I seriously wonder how some of you ever survived playing earlier editions of D&D, when there were no wealth-by-level tables and no CR/EL.

Wealth tables and EL are helper tools for the DM to use, or not. They're great for inexperienced DMs. DMs who have been around for a while probably don't need them. Players who bitch and moan because the DM isn't exactly following the guidelines presented in the DMG should offer to stop whining start DMing.

Obviously the players and the DM should be on the same page as far as expectations for the game go. Metus, that's something that you need to work out with your players. Maybe you can get them to try something different than what they're used to, or maybe they can convince you to hand out more treasure than you're used to. Or maybe you should step aside and let one of them take over the reins.

 

[ARandomGod]

My players regularly chew me out because their characters do not have the "appropriate" character wealth, as seen on pg. 135 of the 3.5 DMG. At 8th level, one character had 13k worth of items and another 16k. The players whole-heartedly believe it severely handicaps their characters' performance, and that the challenge ratings for their level are unbalanced due to their lack of funds.

I think the wealth is fine as is. I don't think that the chart in the DMG is supposed to be followed to the letter - it's just a guideline, and if you don't have that much (or if you have more), it's not a big deal. Obviously, my players believe otherwise.

So, after getting another earful from them at tonight's game, I decided I would see how other DMs and players were handling the wealth. As a player, do your characters have around the same amount of wealth as listed on the chart? As a DM, do you always make sure your players have such? I understand there would be a definite difference for low-powered or high-powered campaigns, but I'm just talking about regular D&D.

Your thoughts?

(As an aside, I'm sure some are thinking, "It's just a matter of what you and your players are happy with." That's all well and good, but the amount of character wealth ties in with the game mechanics to a certain extent, and so it's more an issue of game balance then preference.)

My thoughts.
Well, there have already been enough comments pointing out that modules and CR ratings of encounters are indeed based along with an expectation of a certain character power level (stats) and character wealth (access to items). But I'm assuming that's taken into account... whether by giving them weaker encounters, or stronger characters themselves, or by simply wanting more adventure, so it's ok that they're getting less XP per encounter that they can handle.

Taken that as a given, I have to turn this over to my Evil Genius desires.

Simply tell them that they were given the opportunity to have the appropriate wealth level, and it's not your fault if they didn't find everything from every encounter...

Yes... That should make them focus their wrath upon themselves, attacking each others incompentence, and it should make them pay more attention in future games. It's a Lovely Solution.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My players regularly chew me out because their characters do not have the "appropriate" character wealth, as seen on pg. 135 of the 3.5 DMG. At 8th level, one character had 13k worth of items and another 16k. The players whole-heartedly believe it severely handicaps their characters' performance, and that the challenge ratings for their level are unbalanced due to their lack of funds.

I think the wealth is fine as is. I don't think that the chart in the DMG is supposed to be followed to the letter - it's just a guideline, and if you don't have that much (or if you have more), it's not a big deal. Obviously, my players believe otherwise.

So, after getting another earful from them at tonight's game, I decided I would see how other DMs and players were handling the wealth. As a player, do your characters have around the same amount of wealth as listed on the chart? As a DM, do you always make sure your players have such? I understand there would be a definite difference for low-powered or high-powered campaigns, but I'm just talking about regular D&D.

Your thoughts?

(As an aside, I'm sure some are thinking, "It's just a matter of what you and your players are happy with." That's all well and good, but the amount of character wealth ties in with the game mechanics to a certain extent, and so it's more an issue of game balance then preference.)

Show them what a real "equivalent" treasure looks like. I tell you, it's a PitA to work with. I used to use a treasure generating program, which just randomly determined treasure, and found a problem; the hoards were unrealistically large. Furthermore, most of the gear handed out was useless; lots of +2 swords when the players had +4 swords, and the like. The players have to go back to town, sell it, buy better stuff... this is called "grinding" and it's the reason I won't play Angband or Diablo.

And then NPCs... because they have to have less gear, they're weaker but some classes are more gear-dependent (and have better gear) such as fighters - they get hurt more. (This is true of players as well... at mid-to-high levels, cutting back on gear hurts fighters more than mages.) The CR assumptions of these NPCs go out the window (okay, that's minor hyperbole). I found I could try reducing treasure everywhere else and give NPCs more gear (helping to fix the CR problem, giving out smaller hoards) but that took too much magic-item-accounting to be fun anymore. Furthermore, no matter how powerful I made those NPCs... I could boost gear, AC, and so forth... I couldn't boost their damage.

It's hard to hand out "fun" treasure because it's weak... any player using a covenent sword and a few minor trinkets is going to be underpowered, even if the gear adds up to the correct amount (as pointed out elsewhere).

To top it off, the treasure system is mildly broken - the players need to convert treasure to about 85% of it's value to keep up, but they sell it for 50% of it's value, plus a little bump for Diplomacy.

I also hate how so much DnD power is tied up in equipment. You would think that characters would learn how to dodge or parry on their own, but most classes can't. I recall trying on a few boards (including here) a "light fighter" class. I gave it some AC bonuses, because at low levels it's AC was worse than a monk's. It was deemed broken, however, because with all the AC-boosting gear you can get at high-levels it was impossible to hit, and, oh yeah, you can't really take away learned AC bonuses either.

It sounds like you haven't seen any balance problems yet, but they will crop up eventually. I have no advice, since everything I've tried hasn't worked. I've jumped to Modern, and I have no intention of running DnD for a long time because of the "grinding".

I seriously wonder how some of you ever survived playing earlier editions of D&D, when there were no wealth-by-level tables and no CR/EL.

No wonder I've never seen a balanced 2e campaign.

 

[Maliki]

I think the usefulness of the magic the party has is far more important than the GP value of the items. As long as what they have is effective on what they encounter I think they should have no complaints. They are 8th level they seem to be able to survive what you have thrown at them so far, so I think for your campaign the amount of wealth seems reasonable.

 

[kigmatzomat]

And who determines what special powers get thrown at the PCs? The same person who hands out treasure.

Yes, but his campaign is only at 8th level. He's basically at the turning point where the opponents start tossing fireballs that *hurt* and using mind controls. Two 8HD fireballs will likely toast his wizards and their saves aren't very good without items.

I seriously wonder how some of you ever survived playing earlier editions of D&D, when there were no wealth-by-level tables and no CR/EL.

The lack of a CR system meant the DM *had* to pay attention. I think the extra tools make some GMs lazy. Metus isn't since he is reacting and using his resources, but I don't think he has truly plumbed the depths of 3e opponents yet. I get the idea Metus hasn't run mid-high level 3e before or he would have known to tell his players he gives out less cash than a typical campaign.

Wealth tables and EL are helper tools for the DM to use, or not. They're great for inexperienced DMs. DMs who have been around for a while probably don't need them.

With the caveat of "must share with players their non-standard preferences" I agree. But an inexperienced DM must use *all* the tools in concert if they expect them to work. Fiddle with things you don't understand and expect to get burned.

Players who bitch and moan because the DM isn't exactly following the guidelines presented in the DMG should offer to stop whining start DMing.

*Alternately* they could be experienced 3e players and see that they are heading towards a campaign-ending TPK that could be headed off with a fairly minor change in game play.

 

[Arnwyn]

As a DM, do you always make sure your players have such?

Never. As others have noted, I don't even refer to them for guidance. I ensure that the wealth available "fits" the current campaign.

Of course, I'm lucky that my players and I have been gaming long enough to not need such guidelines. That's the key, I think.

 

[Spatula]

*Alternately* they could be experienced 3e players and see that they are heading towards a campaign-ending TPK that could be headed off with a fairly minor change in game play.

Which is to say, they don't trust the DM to not throw challenges at the party that are beyond their capabilities.

 

[Droid101]

I'm sure it's been answered, but I'm just adding my own campaign's take. I've never looked at the player wealth chart. I give the PCs the amount of treasure listed under the monster's listing, or whatever they get off the bad guys (I give the bad guys what I think they'd have, and use). To my knowledge, my PCs have never looked at that chart either, and don't care.

I'm sure they have far below the number on there, though I've never actually tried to add it up and compare. It doesn't matter. It's a game. Your PCs just need to sit down and shut up, from the sound of it.